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An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

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Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#41

Post by triclosan »

white_devil wrote: post #38
vacri wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're descended from people who had really miserable lives: sleep in a cave, hope you can hunt or gather enough food to stay alive, go to sleep hungry more often than not This is pure conjecture. risk death by infection every time you get a cut that's more than skin deep Reasonable point, but nothing to hang your hat on - it's the same for many poor people today that have poor access to medicine and reproduce through…

I believe his point was that it should be possible for to gradually improve their living conditions even despite their hardships.

I think he(and maybe you) underestimate how bad it is. Just because your shitty situation gradually improves, it doesn't make it a good situation, it makes it a slightly better shitty situation.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#42

Post by ap22213 »

anateus wrote: post #37
ap22213 wrote: post #24

Having started at the (US) 99th percentile and having luckily risen to the 2nd percentile, I'll say that the most difficult part was learning 'the language' of the middle class. By language, I mean all the nuanced understandings, cultural concepts, non-verbal stuff that is impossible to gain without being in it. And, as an adult I'm still learning. One example that I've recently become frighteningly aware of is that…

In the interest of learning the middle, and upper middle class's vocabulary I respectfully make the correction that you probably meant that you went from the 1st percentile, to the 98th (of income, I believe you imply). I've seen my parents make a climb in socioeconomic "position" similar to yours, and I've found that much as you found one of the fundamental things that separate the "classes" is awareness of taboos,…

Thanks for the correction. I used that twist of view to allude to and separate out the so-called '1%', of which appears to me to have a separate 'language' in itself.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#43

Post by ap22213 »

MaysonL wrote: post #25
ap22213 wrote: post #24

Having started at the (US) 99th percentile and having luckily risen to the 2nd percentile, I'll say that the most difficult part was learning 'the language' of the middle class. By language, I mean all the nuanced understandings, cultural concepts, non-verbal stuff that is impossible to gain without being in it. And, as an adult I'm still learning. One example that I've recently become frighteningly aware of is that…

I'd be curious to know if you've looked at the Harlem Children's Zone project, and what your take on it would be.

I took a look at the program, and it seems well intended and effective (at least from the web copy). I certainly and happily took similar help throughout my childhood: housing, food, clothing, education, health care, etc. and, I'm happy to now be able to support those types of programs.

But, these types of programs supply the minimum requirements for a poor kid to be accepted to the party. For them to excel, they need integration. For instance, I owe a significant portion of my success to the various middle class connections that I've had along the way. Having friends in the middle class, and especially, having those friend's parents act as guides and mentors was incredibly helpful, looking back.

Now living in one of the richest counties in the US, I see a big risk in having this income segregation. Poor kids need to have an environment where they may learn the middle class ways. And, they can't do it easily by living only among the poor.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#44

Post by white_devil »

triclosan wrote: post #41
white_devil wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe his point was that it should be possible for to gradually improve their living conditions even despite their hardships.

I think he(and maybe you) underestimate how bad it is. Just because your shitty situation gradually improves, it doesn't make it a good situation, it makes it a slightly better shitty situation.

Yes, but the gradual improvement might have been happening over a long period already, and as a result, the situation wouldn't be bad anymore.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#45

Post by Anderkent »

nickolai wrote: post #34
byrneseyeview wrote: post #12

This article alludes to the "bee sting" theory of poverty (see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/... ). That brings up an interesting question: in historical terms, the subject of this story is quite well-off; he's not always physically at risk, he has ready access to probably non-toxic food, he has shelter, etc. Over a long enough timeline, his life is pretty good. Even his home situation--…

That's a very intersting quote article you quote there. Just one thing : the article seems to claim that not caring to solve one's problems stems from the impossibility to solve them all in a forseeable future. Hence the problems create a "why bother ?" attitude, which in turn creates more problems. This pretty much nails the issue to me. But then the author goes on "The core of the problem has not been self-discipli…

It would be a self-discipline problem if the affected people were showing less self-discipline than others. The author is saying that a rich person (that does not currently have the self-discipline problem) put into this situation would behave similarly. Thus the core issue is not with the poor people having less self-discipline, but instead with how poverty affects our self-discipline.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#46

Post by yummyfajitas »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #12

This article alludes to the "bee sting" theory of poverty (see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/... ). That brings up an interesting question: in historical terms, the subject of this story is quite well-off; he's not always physically at risk, he has ready access to probably non-toxic food, he has shelter, etc. Over a long enough timeline, his life is pretty good. Even his home situation--…

An alternative to the "bee sting" theory of poverty is a much simpler one. The poor, much like the rich, are rational utility maximizers.

But unlike the rich, working for money does not improve consumption significantly for the poor. Therefore, the poor choose not to work.

http://crazybear.posterous.com/why-the-poor-dont-work

Note that this explanation doesn't require complicated utility functions, it merely requires that the utility function be nondecreasing.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#47

Post by meric »

vacri wrote: post #17
byrneseyeview wrote: post #12

This article alludes to the "bee sting" theory of poverty (see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/... ). That brings up an interesting question: in historical terms, the subject of this story is quite well-off; he's not always physically at risk, he has ready access to probably non-toxic food, he has shelter, etc. Over a long enough timeline, his life is pretty good. Even his home situation--…

We're descended from people who had really miserable lives: sleep in a cave, hope you can hunt or gather enough food to stay alive, go to sleep hungry more often than not This is pure conjecture. risk death by infection every time you get a cut that's more than skin deep Reasonable point, but nothing to hang your hat on - it's the same for many poor people today that have poor access to medicine and reproduce through…

>>>> We're descended from people who had really miserable

>>>> lives: sleep in a cave, hope you can hunt or gather enough

>>>> food to stay alive, go to sleep hungry more often than

>>>> not

>> This is pure conjecture.

When my grandmother was young, she ate 1 bowl of rice a day (max), and had to spend her entire salary on food. Though she did sometimes get a few drops of pig fat to eat with her rice. Her job was carrying sand and rocks away from where the hill was demolished.

When my mother was young, she ate 2 bowl of rice, and vegetables, plus chicken on chinese new years. Her job was nursing.

Today, I eat cereal in the morning, rice and meat and vegetables for lunch and dinner. I'm a student.

Anecdotes are anecdotes but it is not a pure conjecture.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#48

Post by burgerbrain »

darklajid wrote: post #39
burgerbrain wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is pretty safe to say that "acts out in school to get suspensions to stop your mother from being a prostitute" is an outlier. I acted out in primary school. I did it because I was an asshole who didn't respect education. I suspect my peers were the same.

Just for reference, since you're now directly comparing two schools (yours and the one in the linked article) here, how would you characterize the similarities or differences between your school and one described as "a primarily low-income, high-minority middle school serving sixth- through eighth-graders"?

Yeah, that sounds about like my school.

However, I find it very hard to believe that any school in the world can attribute most of it's student unruliness to children trying to get kicked out so that their mothers cannot be prostitutes.

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#49

Post by yelsgib »

byrneseyeview wrote: post #12

This article alludes to the "bee sting" theory of poverty (see http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/30/... ). That brings up an interesting question: in historical terms, the subject of this story is quite well-off; he's not always physically at risk, he has ready access to probably non-toxic food, he has shelter, etc. Over a long enough timeline, his life is pretty good. Even his home situation--…

You mention physical security, food availability, and shelter as this little boy's three major boons in life. But does he have access to an intellectual tradition? Does he have access to any figure who can teach him anything? Does he have hope? Does he have freedom?

Your caricature of a person with a "really" miserable life crucially forgets that in many ways this person might have had a much more rich than someone living in poverty in the inner city. Namely, in terms of freedom, in terms of connection to his family and community, and in terms of his independence. People (not just the impoverished) living in cities with high population density have a fairly unique set of psychological stresses, historically speaking. This set of stresses seems to be particularly crushing, for whatever reason.

I mean, what I really don't understand about your comment is the tone of it. That somehow this child has all of these benefits, but still fails? What are you proposing? Can you really not see that the child must ALSO have some deficits that cause him to fail? Are you proposing that he's a bad person? I just really don't get it. What's your answer? What's your idea? That he's just not "trying" hard enough? What's the difference between a person who tries hard enough and one who doesn't?

It feels to me that underlying your comment is a deep blindness to crucial elements of human psychology. You somehow draw an equivalence between humans existing in superficially similar circumstances and then throw your hands up in the air and say "I don't get it!"

Re: An Ode to a 'Poor Black Kid' I Never Knew: How Forbes Gets Poverty Wrong

#50

Post by paulhauggis »

Indy_Dh wrote: post #9
paulhauggis wrote: post #5

"How best to prioritize learning to read rigorously over scheming to get home and be the man of the house in the stead of the father who left? How best to find joy in school with so much hate and embitterment poisoning the rest of your life?" How can we fix this? The problem is that no matter how much our teachers may push students to do better and work harder in school, their home life may work against it. It's one…

You are bringing up the argument for Welfare, Universal Healthcare, etc., that there is nothing that the schools can do. The problems that these kids are facing stems from the fact that they live in poverty. This leads to issues such as the one mentioned by the author. The only way to solve the problem would be to try to figure out a decent Social Benefits system for the poor, to where poor parents do not feel the ne…

"You are bringing up the argument for Welfare, Universal Healthcare, etc., that there is nothing that the schools can do"

You can give people all of the healthcare and the free money that you want, but it still won't automatically create a productive member of society.

This will only create generations of people that are dependent on the welfare system and can't actually go out and get a job.

As long as you aren't mentally or physically challenged, you should be able to work.

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