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Technical Debt Is a Myth

medium.com

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Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#11

Post by svnt »

pixl97 wrote: post #7
iLoveOncall wrote: post #6

I'm not sure what what to think of the article because I think the definition he chose for technical debt is extremely reductive. No, technical debt does not only come from taking shortcuts. I would even go as far as saying that most of the time it does not come from taking shortcuts. - You wrote a perfectly engineered system in Cobold 30 years ago that was state of the art then? Well, now all your Cobold developers…

Technical entropy. Entropy is unavoidable is the outcome of any work occurring.

It’s a cool-sounding term. I think I agree if things are viewed zoomed out enough (temporally), but isn’t the issue actually (unknown, outdated) structure, not entropy? The entropy is what comes about as the old structure gives way.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#12

Post by svnt »

yunwal wrote: post #5
PaulHoule wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like they are trying to do otherwise but I see this article as perpetuating the basic problem with "technical debt" which is the analogy with debt. But what do you expect from an article on Medium? If you take on debt the bank is going to question if you can pay it. You're going to have to go through a formal process and bring in expensive experts such as accountants to justify that taking on debt is worthwh…

Isn’t the point of using the phrase “technical debt” that you should be doing this? It’s an idealistic phrase, not one that’s supposed to apply to every organization.

It applies to every organization. You have to take some of it on unless you turn minerals into revenue using only processes and systems that can be recreated from scratch at will irrespective of who your employees are. Since no one can do that, everyone has it.

Taking it on unnecessarily is bad for the health of the business and worse than financial debt because technical debt, unlike financial debt, is not fungible.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#13

Post by svnt »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #6

I'm not sure what what to think of the article because I think the definition he chose for technical debt is extremely reductive. No, technical debt does not only come from taking shortcuts. I would even go as far as saying that most of the time it does not come from taking shortcuts. - You wrote a perfectly engineered system in Cobold 30 years ago that was state of the art then? Well, now all your Cobold developers…

> It's not debt. It's stuff that used to be perfectly fine and due to no fault of yours is not anymore.

The risk of this happening is more or less measurable and is the debt. Denying responsibility doesn’t make the debt not exist. It might mean you’re so far removed from understanding how your (sub)systems function that you’re unable to assess it. It may be so complex that no one is able to quantify it, in which case I suppose “it doesn’t exist” might be accurate enough — either your business fails or it doesn’t based on the success of your subsystems, and your business outcome is the measurement. I’d rather have someone else be the measurement.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#14

Post by karmakaze »

tqi wrote: post #10

> When we use the term technical debt, lots of non-technical people hear, ‘This is a technical problem, with technical solutions.’ This thinking couldn’t be further from the truth. If the organisation is responsible for the creation of the debt (as established above), it’s also responsible for the elimination of it. Debt belongs to the entire organisation. This is a strawman.

[Up to the expected quality of a Medium post.]

It renames Tech Debt as an "organisational mortgage—a loan the business takes out against future capabilities to deliver, which has to be paid back with interest. In this way, it’s no different than any other loan, or any other debt the organisation incurs."

The difference of course is that this debt has a technical solution, as opposed to a financial one.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#15

Post by xupybd »

PaulHoule wrote: post #8
yunwal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the point of using the phrase “technical debt” that you should be doing this? It’s an idealistic phrase, not one that’s supposed to apply to every organization.

I rarely hear "technical debt" in the context of "let's incur some technical debt now so we can deliver this ticket quickly", it's rather "we can't deliver this ticket quickly now because somebody (usually somebody else) incurred technical debt" in the past. If management is using it usually an attempt to shut discussion down in the context of (i) poor psychological safety on the part of devs because (ii) management…

We do that. If we have to take a short cut we sit down with management and try to see if it's worth it.

We need to launch so we will do this now. We know January is going to be quiet so we plan to fix it then.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#16

Post by xupybd »

karmakaze wrote: post #14
tqi wrote: post #10

> When we use the term technical debt, lots of non-technical people hear, ‘This is a technical problem, with technical solutions.’ This thinking couldn’t be further from the truth. If the organisation is responsible for the creation of the debt (as established above), it’s also responsible for the elimination of it. Debt belongs to the entire organisation. This is a strawman.

[Up to the expected quality of a Medium post.] It renames Tech Debt as an "organisational mortgage—a loan the business takes out against future capabilities to deliver, which has to be paid back with interest. In this way, it’s no different than any other loan, or any other debt the organisation incurs." The difference of course is that this debt has a technical solution, as opposed to a financial one.

Using resources to implement a technical solution is a financial cost.

Some technical debt is from poor planning and design. Some is from a choice to get things done now that are quicker and cheaper but will cause some pain in the future. In that way technical debt is different, but it still has a cost to solve.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#18

Post by xupybd »

NoPicklez wrote: post #17

I feel like the author just slightly reframed the term technical debt to being abount a mortgage and that's the article.

The article doesn't say a lot, I agree with you there. But I like this part

"should be a deliberate choices. It has costs, interest, pros, and cons."

Any "Technical debt" that is not a deliberate choice fails to fit the analogy. Often it's just crappy design or implementation. There are times that you need to take on some debt to move forward because you don't have the resources to do it otherwise. That to me is where the analogy works well and the important part is to make sure management is making that call not some overworked developer.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#19

Post by d0liver »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #6

I'm not sure what what to think of the article because I think the definition he chose for technical debt is extremely reductive. No, technical debt does not only come from taking shortcuts. I would even go as far as saying that most of the time it does not come from taking shortcuts. - You wrote a perfectly engineered system in Cobold 30 years ago that was state of the art then? Well, now all your Cobold developers…

A lot of your framing has to do with what's expected of the system. Like, scaling from 100 users to 100M is an expectation not a property of the software. Making that library _more_ secure is also an expectation. Expectation becomes debt when your current expectation exceeds the limits of the system. When that happens it's largely because someone, often not a developer, changed the expectations. When that happens the difference between the expectations and actual system has to reconcile somehow and that's usually via some "shortcut" and there's some associated cost.

So, within your framing, the point is just that when things change (due to no fault of your own) the whole organization has to adjust expectations or you have an organizational issue.

Re: Technical Debt Is a Myth

#20

Post by maximus-decimus »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #6

I'm not sure what what to think of the article because I think the definition he chose for technical debt is extremely reductive. No, technical debt does not only come from taking shortcuts. I would even go as far as saying that most of the time it does not come from taking shortcuts. - You wrote a perfectly engineered system in Cobold 30 years ago that was state of the art then? Well, now all your Cobold developers…

> Well, now all your Cobold developers have retired and you need to add new features to that tool. It's tech debt.

A new feature isn't tech debt... it's a new feature. I don't know for other people but at my workplace they're two very different types of TFS items.

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