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‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

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Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why everyone assumes this. It seems like he'd have much more ability to shape the future of Russia and protect those close to him if he chooses a successor and oversees the succession. He could also ensure better conditions for himself (i.e. not being executed) in case he ends up being unable to continue ruling due to sickness/old age.

Do we have any examples of this actually happening in the Soviet times until now? He's going to be worried about the groomed successor doing him in earlier than natural death. That paranoia is what keeps them from doing what you suggest.

Lenin himself died of natural causes after leaving power.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that smart people, paying attention and putting national interest will now compromise, and people not in that category will just continue to refuse. So the "centre" will move closer to whatever that latter group believes. And will keep doing so until then former group stops compromising. So this, like so so many issues, cannot be solves by appeals to individuals to change their own position. It REQUIRE…

>It REQUIRES a national level fix. Honestly, genuinely, what the hell would that even look like? I legitimately cannot picture a solution here.

Some action against Russia to deter future interference?

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#243
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why you think it happens less often is because the US declassifies its foreign activities after a long delay, at which point we have government admissions of what was done. Until then, we have only media reports that are labelled as conspiracy theories, etc. But US was certainly behind a wave of color revolutions that just happened to occur in many of the former Soviet Republics and just happened to instal…

My father's family came from what is now a post-soviet republic, which you probably do not understand was previously, before unpopular annexation, a pre-soviet republic. You are not going to convince me with pro Putin horse shit. There are plenty of post-soviet republics, Ukraine included, who are favorable to NATO and not due to a US conspiracy. Many of these were brutally oppressed not just by the Soviet Union but…

Well, despite the trenchant analysis, the point is not that the US creates completely fake movements. There are real issues of racism, religious tensions, women's rights, etc, and the point is to exploit these, arm the various groups, raise the temperature, and ultimately orchestrate a coup.

For example, the US had a program to arm tibetans and train them to commit sabotage in China in the 1950s. That's not to say that Tibetans did not exist as an ethnic group or that they had no grievances against Han Chinese. That's not how this stuff works. So the point is that by drawing boundaries to include large Russian populations in the 1920s, this created exactly the recipe for racial conflict when the provinces became independent nations. Then appeals could be made to people like your father to take up arms and foment violence. It just requires a steady stream of funding, propaganda, buying media, stoking up long standing hatreds, etc. That's the recipe of color revolutions. It's also how the British operated in many parts of the empire, exploiting existing ethnic dividing lines.

Similarly in the Arab world, there were legitimate grievances, for example in Libya. Of course the end result was the dismemberment of the nation, but that's how the US operates -- they pry open existing grievances and create chaos and violence in order to further geostrategic goals.

To be fair, The Soviet Union did the same thing during the cold war, famously providing funding for various radical racial groups in the U.S. in an attempt to create chaos in America in the 1960s. So it wasn't just the US and Britain that operates this way. The point is to leverage whetever fractures there are in society and make those larger.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#244
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father's family came from what is now a post-soviet republic, which you probably do not understand was previously, before unpopular annexation, a pre-soviet republic. You are not going to convince me with pro Putin horse shit. There are plenty of post-soviet republics, Ukraine included, who are favorable to NATO and not due to a US conspiracy. Many of these were brutally oppressed not just by the Soviet Union but…

Well, despite the trenchant analysis, the point is not that the US creates completely fake movements. There are real issues of racism, religious tensions, women's rights, etc, and the point is to exploit these, arm the various groups, raise the temperature, and ultimately orchestrate a coup. For example, the US had a program to arm tibetans and train them to commit sabotage in China in the 1950s. That's not to say th…

You just told me that Ukraine wanted to be pro-Russia, anti-west in 2004-2005, and the CIA intervened. That's horse shit.

As I re-read you are also saying the protests against Lukashenko were a US led coup attempt. Sorry, that is just nuts. I'm going to hazard a guess that if you aren't deliberately lying, you don't know very much about Lukashenko. You are just repeating all the Kremlin type stuff without skepticism. I really don't have polite words.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#245
post #72

Frankly, I'm shocked. The US would never do such a thing and to discover that others may want to influence american politics for their benefit is astonishing.

It’s notable because he was indicted by Muller for election interference, so it’s confirming the accusation that Russia attempted to influence the 2016 election. It’s also newsworthy because many people didn’t (or still don’t) believe any election interference happened, and that it’s the first time (that I’m aware of) where a foreign nation was accused of so directly and materially attempting to influence a US electi…

The reason russian influence entered the zeitgeist was a PR push from people who worked in the HRC campaign and DNC insiders who needed to blame Trumps win on external factors to distract from their "pied piper" strategy of deliberately elevating trump during the primaries because they thought he would be easy to beat.

(https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaig...)

There is no evidence (afaik) that russian influence materially swayed the results of the 2016 election.

Not-so-fun-fact: the DCCC is still using this strategy to funnel funds from democratic donors into right-extremist candidates races in the 2022 cycle:

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-spent-43-million-helping-...

https://theweek.com/speed-reads/1015258/the-pied-piper-strat...

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#246
post #211
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on your comment? Are you suggesting that US elections can be rigged?

Probably the most memorable was the Russians hacking the Democrats emails. Also Trump's lot meeting with the Russians before hand and the 100s of Russian troll accounts with names like American Patriot. I mean I know a lot of countries try to influence elections but is was all getting like something from a spy novel. I'm not American and not hugely partisan on the right/left thing but I think the whole world was watc…

>Also Trump's lot meeting with the Russians before hand and the 100s of Russian troll accounts with names like American Patriot.

No one is alleging collusion between Russia and Trump, so you are alluding to baseless conspiracy theories here.

>Obviously the Russians were trying to help Trump and may have swung things a little given that the vote was so close.

Suggesting that American elections are insecure and have been tampered with is perpetuating The Big Lie conspiracy theory.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#247

Quoted post unavailable.

> The Russia-gate was always a laughable hoax Don't know why I'm going to bother, but from the intro to Volume 1 of the Mueller Report: "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion. Evidence of Russian government operations began to surface in mid-2016. In June, the Democratic National Committee and its cyber response team publicly announced that Russian hack…

No post body was provided.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#248
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think as long as people wishing to know more about the situation with the fox in the hen house don't mind reading the latest updates from the actual fox itself, then sure. These aren't just war cheerleaders, the ISW is literally the architects of war. Sure they know a lot about it, look at their Board of Directors. It's filled with warmongers.

If "fox" == "Russian military" and "hen house" == "Ukraine"...well, the ISW folks strike me as far too sympathetic to the hen side to be shills for the fox side, as you seem to believe.

In my analogy the fox is war profiteers and the hen house is the rest of society.

ISW is always pro-war. They are Neocons, it is a foundational part of their ideology. Any drivel coming from that place needs to be viewed through that lens.

In other news, McDonalds thinks we should eat more burgers.

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#249
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is to further political extremism, on both sides, and to create in fighting so that no united formation can stand against them. > So the question is how to fight against this. I think our political parties and media are responsible for 99% of the political extremism, unwillingness to compromise, and placing their self interests over the well being of the country. And frankly, I think posts like yours cont…

> I think our political parties and media are responsible for 99% of the political extremism, unwillingness to compromise, and placing their self interests over the well being of the country. FPTP usually creates this polarisation. I don't agree with your take that both parties are equally responsible though, one of them has consistently used political gridlock as a weapon, since Obama years. To the point where one o…

> I don't agree with your take that both parties are equally responsible though, one of them has consistently used political gridlock as a weapon, since Obama years.

Is political gridlock the root of the problem? Help me understand how only one party is responsible.

Interesting you mention Obama. He ran on an anti-war platform, which was fairly out of line with the media and general American politics at the time. That alone was a big reason to vote for him.

But what did he do? An unprecedented increase in drone attacks. By all measures, Obama let the military industrial complex grow.

> I have a huge grievance with this line, it's literal Russian propaganda you are repeating.

How is it propaganda? Are you staying this IS NOT exactly what Russia stated, repeatedly since the early 2000s?

Re: ‘Putin’s chef’ admits to interfering in U.S. elections

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My default position is misinformation because I think people being dumb is more likely then them attempting to gaslight others. They get the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, but it definitely raises suspicion. The same goes for dog whistling. It is easy to see dog whistling everywhere because that's its entire purpose: to hide within normalized speech. Covert speech is not covert if the only ones using th…

Whatever happened to "wrong"? As in, "that's wrong". Ideally followed by some reasoning. All of these fancier words like whataboutism or misinformation are just attempts to assert authority via the word. They don't convey additional meaning.

Misinformation and disinformation are just nuanced versions of wrong. The former means unintentional and the latter means intentional. The distinctions are useful here because the latter is a claim that the person spouting the information is corrupt and knowingly trying to propagate lies. This is more universally considered bad. People are wrong all the time, but most people aren't intentionally spreading lies.

Malinformation doesn't mean something is wrong but that it is misleading. This distinction is important because if you claim malinformation you actually aren't claiming that the information used is wrong, but the way it is is. A classic example of this is white nationalists using the phrase "despite being 13% of the population black people ". While the statistics may be accurate it does not incorporate the complexities involved which end up decoupling race from the statistics. To put it more accurately, this is an aggregation error (more specifically ascertainment bias, a form of collider bias on conditional probabilities). Without the deaggregation here it is natural to assume that the conditional variable here is ethnicity (the intent of the malinformation) but in reality this is misleading because the way the information was presented is not entirely accurate.

Malinformation is specifically difficult to defend against because one can google to confirm accuracy of claims. But in reality it takes expertise to dismantle the claims. It is preying upon people's naivety and inability to process information that they are not intimately familiar with (which is all of us, just in different subjects). So it is important to recognize that this form of manipulation exists. The defense is to maintain skepticism and consult experts. Looking for consensus among experts specifically.

These words do in fact convey a significant amount of additional meaning and the distinctions are important. Especially if we're trying to encourage more meaningful and nuanced discussions.

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