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Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

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Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#121
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grant us a little leeway: it all takes time. The DID PLC registry is a placeholder because what we actually want is akin to a ICAN-style governance over it. When we talk about a “permissioned consortium” we mean as opposed to a “permissionless blockchain.” It’s not that we haven’t solved the mechanics; it’s that the right solution is a people/org problem and not a computing problem. We include DID Web as an option in…

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my concerns. Your transparency is very reassuring, and I appreciate your contributions to this important area of technology. I think I am still uneasy, though, about the idea of hoping for a global governance structure (with unknown accountability and financial controls) to come along and start granting (and revoking) people their online identities. I just feel like the pro…

Sure, appreciate the conversation. Also, love that comic.

Very fair concern. We’ll keep communicating what’s going on there and see what happens.

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#122

I think there are two interesting sides to this here: First is that essentially a key part of this strategy is ideological, not pragmatic. Centralization came out of pragmatism, not ideology. It seems hard for me to believe that deliberately choosing the less efficient solution is a good idea for a start up. The second is that we seem to be seeing a lot of VC brain here. By that I mean, I can scream at a VC "OMG THER…

> how do you balance speech, censorship and moderation? Decentralization does help a lot here. The X, Y and Z server owners don’t have to agree or coordinate. The fact that they will disagree on their policies is part of the answer. There won’t be a one-size-fits-all policy. Different servers will try different things and ideas will be shared about what works and what doesn’t. Z server can choose to allow saying mean…

Sounds like it'd just be another Mastodon -- and heck, likely get federated (or in most cases, not federated...the whole issue with Mastodon) in with the rest.

Back in the Usenet days we had killfiles to do user based filtering -- everything would get sent out, and users would decide what sort of content they didn't want to see. Obviously it was harder back then to just spin up a new identity, so it's not simply a matter of taking the old tech and slapping it on the new, but the approach avoided the splinter effect we get trying to decide for users what will and won't be available to them (whether they like it or not). Snowden actually tweeted a week or two about how trivial this would be to implement on Twitter if they ever actually wanted to (with a working one liner to prove it). The issue thus far has usually been that advertising funded social media THRIVES on the controversy, and only moderates what it needs to to keep advertisers happy. They don't WANT you to make it a pleasant experience, because controversy and fights get more ad views.

Perhaps at some point bandwidth becomes cheap enough that we can cut back on how much of a role advertisers play in steering the ship. Until then I don't see a great solution to any of this.

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#123
post #120
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High speed and low latency are overvalued at the moment, because they are so important to the functioning of the capitalist internet. Usenet, IRC, email - discussion, conversation, mail - all worked fine for decades on the old, low speed internet. What exactly are we getting in exchange for all this high-availability nonsense anyways?

Usenet was pretty low latency at the time. But that time is long past. This is the problem you have where you look at the past and said "All these things worked great then", but the moment your users use something with higher bandwidth and lower latency they are leaving your site. If everything is slow that is the expectation, if you're slow, you're losing. So yea, we're the old men yelling at clouds, and the kids ha…

Usenet also enjoyed ISP's typically being willing to host them as part of providing basic Internet service at the time. Good luck asking Comcast and company to host the latest iteration of social media this decade.

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#124
post #120
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High speed and low latency are overvalued at the moment, because they are so important to the functioning of the capitalist internet. Usenet, IRC, email - discussion, conversation, mail - all worked fine for decades on the old, low speed internet. What exactly are we getting in exchange for all this high-availability nonsense anyways?

Usenet was pretty low latency at the time. But that time is long past. This is the problem you have where you look at the past and said "All these things worked great then", but the moment your users use something with higher bandwidth and lower latency they are leaving your site. If everything is slow that is the expectation, if you're slow, you're losing. So yea, we're the old men yelling at clouds, and the kids ha…

If I'm not mistaken, though, irc still works pretty well, and still provides what it always has, and could still function as the live chat aspect of a small community's technology stack. Moreover, in the event that the high-availability internet goes away, it will probably still work on a 90s-tech internet. If your packets are just conversational text, you really don't need a massive warp-speed pipe to make it work.

Likewise Usenet - yes, we abused it to get our alt.binaries (read: boobies), but that was strictly desperation. It still works fine on the fast internet, but again, will continue to work on a 90s internet, in the event that we lose the fast one.

Fast itself is really what's warping our perceptions of what is normal and acceptable. When was the last time you watched an old Connery Bond movie? My grandpa took me to see every Bond movie that existed at the time back in the 80s, the downtown cineplex threw a festival. I remember enjoying all of them at the time, nothing wrong with em.

I threw on Dr No a couple months ago and I swear, I could not get past about 30 minutes, the pacing was hellishly slow, to the point that wanted to climb into the screen and lob a bomb at his car myself out of sheer boredom. Had a similar experience trying to watch Three Days of the Condor.

Interestingly, I decided to rewatch the Lone Wolf and Cub movies after watching the Mandalorian, and they were just as fun as I remember. Some slow scenes, but good pacing with a decent body count:frame ratio.

I don't think we're so much yelling at clouds as wishing the clouds would slow down long enough for us to yell at em. I have my doubts that the pace can be maintained indefinitely, and they are not trying to bring it under control at all. What I expect next is a painful correction in which the laws of nature will come into play in a big way. Whee!

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#125
post #123
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usenet was pretty low latency at the time. But that time is long past. This is the problem you have where you look at the past and said "All these things worked great then", but the moment your users use something with higher bandwidth and lower latency they are leaving your site. If everything is slow that is the expectation, if you're slow, you're losing. So yea, we're the old men yelling at clouds, and the kids ha…

Usenet also enjoyed ISP's typically being willing to host them as part of providing basic Internet service at the time. Good luck asking Comcast and company to host the latest iteration of social media this decade.

I think that the desirable long term outcome involves the vast majority of people embracing the idea that we should pay up front for information services, rather than accepting "free" things from capitalists. TANSTAAFL.

The good part is that operating a usenet server with no alt.binaries.* content is extremely low demand; it was designed to run on the 70s internet, so...

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#126
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No centralization, no server.

"This, and other things CEOs say while smoking crack." Computer code still runs on CPUs and not the aether. If its accepting connections from other computers it is the server in the client/server model. If it's on your desktop, it just typically means it doesn't have ECC memory and a battery backup dropping the reliability even further. Decentralized architectures have all kinds of fun and complicated failure modes,…

Not sure I get the problem. Yes an expensive server in expensive data center has more CPU, Ram, disk I/O, and bandwidth than a normal desktop, laptop, or phone.

But say you track 1000 peers, find 50 online, and send a 280 character tweet to ten of them. Sure it's going to take seconds for that tweet to get to whatever fraction of millions of people that are interested. Sure your client should ask the 40 peers if they saw the message to make sure it went out.

The beautiful thing is that even on a smart phone paying 10x the bandwidth of a tweet is still effectively zero.

If the goal was a commodities trading platform, sure distributed wouldn't make sense. But receiving tweets of interest send in the last few minutes seems rather insensitive to a peers bandwidth, latency, CPU, or ram.

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#127
post #63

You can have decentralisation or you can have sub-second responses to whole-network search queries, but you cannot have both. Twitter has two killer features: the people who use it, and search functionality that allows you to get near-instant results. Mastodon (and I assume Bluesky) cannot compete on either.

How many people care about seeing tweets from the last second vs last minute?

Or the difference between 95% of the results of a search and 100%, especially if the 95% is missing the least popular 5%.

Re: Jack Dorsey Unveils Bluesky Social, the Decentralized Twitter

#128

Alternative title: “Twitter ex CEO announces half-baked and social signalling fuelled, competitor product to entice as many as possible to leave Twitter and help line his pockets”

> help line his pockets

And his ego. The world already has both Mastodon, a decentralized twitter-like social media, and ActivityPub, a protocol for decentralized social media services to connect to each other. Dorsey has chosen to support neither, and instead make his own service and protocol that can't connect to it.

Bluesky has a wait list, while there's already a google doc full of Blue Checks that have moved to Mastodon[1]. I'm hoping grass roots open source succeeds over a billionaire with VC funding, but we shall see.

https://journa.host/@WalterShaub/109305242003516901

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