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Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

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Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#171

Post by narrator »

testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

The American solution to something being too expensive is to spend twice as much money on it.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#172

Post by [deleted] »

dudeinjapan wrote: post #130
testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

In education, "supply" itself is not the issue; there are more than enough spots at state, etc. universities. Its supply of prestigious universities, which is controlled by a cartel. Similar to diamonds, which are neither precious nor rare, yet prices are outrageous because they are controlled by a cartel. If/when I become President of the United States, I will hold back all education dollars on cartel-controlled edu…

[deleted]

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#173

Post by ohnonotyouagain »

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #169
ohnonotyouagain wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the top institutions also offer substantial need-based aid, so the top-line tuition number is really only applicable to households with income over ~$200-$250K. At Harvard a family with $150K income will pay $15K, see https://college.harvard.edu/guides/financial-aid-fact-sheet I think this is typical across the Ivies. That's basically in-state tuition at UMass https://www.umass.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admi…

Yes, but the foreign students pay full price, AFAIK.

Per Harvard's page linked above: "Foreign students have the same access to financial aid funding as U.S. citizens."

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#174

Post by testfoobar »

dudeinjapan wrote: post #130
testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

In education, "supply" itself is not the issue; there are more than enough spots at state, etc. universities. Its supply of prestigious universities, which is controlled by a cartel. Similar to diamonds, which are neither precious nor rare, yet prices are outrageous because they are controlled by a cartel. If/when I become President of the United States, I will hold back all education dollars on cartel-controlled edu…

This is funny and true. The competition and prices all originate from elite institutions.

I wonder if it legal to completely clone a curriculum? Like could you clone an MIT EECS education? Down to the coursework? Or alternatively - force elite schools to license and manage franchisees?

I'd vote for you.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#175

Post by WalterBright »

testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

Is it any surprise that the more the government gets involved in a particular industry, the more expensive it gets?

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#176

Post by mattkrause »

slg wrote: post #147
google234123 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does increasing admin size by something like 10x make sense when states cut funding to public schools?

I can see that happening in a few steps: 1. State cuts funding 2. Public schools need to raise tuition to make up the difference 3. The gap in price between public and private school decreases 4. Schools need to improve their product to attract students in order to make up for this lost savings 5. Schools work to improve amenities and add ancillary services (and this can now become cyclical when other schools improve…

On top of that, it seems like more schools are trying to do/increase graduate education and research.

In principle, this helps two ways. It increases the prestige of the school, thereby attracting students. More directly, it brings in new revenue streams, both from tuition (paid directly or via federal training grants) and via overhead on research grants. However, it requires more--and fundamentally different--kinds of admin.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#177

Post by notacoward »

rocket_surgeron wrote: post #66
School-Cotton wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University education in the US is very far from a free market. They’re kinda the worst of both worlds: massively subsidized by the state and federal governments, with very little government oversight.

What man or law or king can stop me from opening a university and getting it accredited? None. Several open every year. All you need is the capital and that’s what we’re all about, baby! And then you can get the same subsidies and low levels of oversight as the big boys!

Yes, you can open a college/university without being accredited, but you might find it's not such a good idea. Direct subsidies will be out. Most kinds of student loans and other aid will be out. You're going to have a bit of trouble attracting faculty or students, except those who are desperate. And if your students are demonstrably not getting any benefit from attending you'll be shut down as a fraud.

People really lost patience with that crap after Corinthian, Capella, etc. so there are a lot of new limits and regulations. Basically the only non-accredited colleges that can make a go of it are those that have some other kind of rich sponsor - most often a religious one.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#178

Post by nordsieck »

rootusrootus wrote: post #168
nordsieck wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Demand is increasing due to the college wage premium, which keeps widening with no end in sight even despite Covid and online learning. > The college wage premium is the number one culprit for all these problems . For whatever reason, employers derive enough benefit from college grads to pay them waaaayyy more than high school grads That may be true. But there's an easy fix: any job requirements that ask for any co…

> Honestly, I don't really understand why they aren't already: they clearly violate the 4/5ths rule. And it's hard for me to believe that some enterprising lawyer hasn't already brought suit under this theory. My guess is because 'not having a college degree' is not any kind of protected class. Not an immutable characteristic. It is a behavior choice. Do we really want to get the gov't involved in telling private com…

> My guess is because 'not having a college degree' is not any kind of protected class. Not an immutable characteristic. It is a behavior choice. Do we really want to get the gov't involved in telling private companies what qualifications they can require for a particular job?

That is true.

But race and sex are protected classes. And the 4/5ths rule says that if a particular requirement generates a resulting distribution that is more than 4/5ths different from the general population, then it is presumed to be a form of structural discrimination[1].

From what I understand, a requirement that is necessary for the job - for example, a particular degree like Chemical Engineering - would be exempt. But I doubt that the requirement for a college degree without regard to the subject would be similarly protected.

---

1. This is not idle conjecture on my part. There were a number of pretty high profile firefighting tests that were the subject of lawsuits for this very reason. And the cities lost. Sadly, I didn't save the test at the time and I suspect that they've been lost of the mists of time, but I did read at least one of the tests in question, and it was a bunch of firefighting related questions.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#179

Post by pclmulqdq »

paulpauper wrote: post #166
pclmulqdq wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The college wage premium is either reversing or pretty much gone by now. Plumbers and landscapers out-earn English and History majors now. It's only degrees that prepare you for specialized fields that still have an edge.

It's fallacious to compare the lowest paying college degrees to the highest paying of trades work as evidence of the premium reversing. Someone could just as easily compare an engineer, lawyer, or doctor who makes $250k/year to someone who works at McDonald's and makes $25k/year. A plumber with many years of experience on average makes $50-53k/year. This is respectable, but this is after many years. College grads by…

You do have to consider that the apprentice is making $30k out of high school. They will have 4-5 YoE before a college grad finishes college.

If you compare them in that light, the difference reduces quite significantly.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#180

Post by testfoobar »

narrator wrote: post #171
testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

The American solution to something being too expensive is to spend twice as much money on it.

This solution certainly appears to apply to healthcare, education and public infrastructure.

I believe the reason is that since we print the global reserve currency, we can always borrow money at the Federal level and spend more.

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