Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable • Hacker News Board

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#141

Post by kbenson » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:26 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #119

Stanford has now reached the point that they recently built an entire 35-acre campus just for administrators. [1] This is completely separate from the main campus and miles away. "The campus provides workspace for about 2,700 employees (including three of the university’s eight vice presidents) working in critical areas such as the School of Medicine administration, libraries and archives, business affairs, human res…

From what I'm seeing online Stanford has about 22k students in 2022. 2700 does seem like a large number compared to the student population, and given it seems like it isn't meant to house all the administrative staff, that does seem like a lot.

That said, Stanford is private, so I'm not sure they're a good example. Various state universities seem like they would be a more apt target to look at to see what this is like in reality.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#142

Post by bluedino » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #141

Animats wrote: post #119

Stanford has now reached the point that they recently built an entire 35-acre campus just for administrators. [1] This is completely separate from the main campus and miles away. "The campus provides workspace for about 2,700 employees (including three of the university’s eight vice presidents) working in critical areas such as the School of Medicine administration, libraries and archives, business affairs, human res…

From what I'm seeing online Stanford has about 22k students in 2022. 2700 does seem like a large number compared to the student population, and given it seems like it isn't meant to house all the administrative staff, that does seem like a lot. That said, Stanford is private, so I'm not sure they're a good example. Various state universities seem like they would be a more apt target to look at to see what this is lik…

According to the internet:

Stanford University has 24,916 employees.Jul 11, 2022

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#143

Post by mixmastamyk » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #114

testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

"Drive the price down by increasing seats and then fostering competition between schools." The seats have increased dramatically. You won't be able to create efficient competition. The value shoppers already go to state schools. The other people are looking for a specific "quality" or just plain emotion (my family went here, this school is prestigious, etc). Supply isn't the real issue in most disciplines. The proble…

Handing out bales of money in the form of guaranteed loans enables this price insensitivity and accelerates price increases.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#144

Post by peteradio » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:31 AM UTC

greenthrow wrote: post #91

PRO TIP: Don't pontificate about things you are not an expert on. You usually are missing a lot of context and detail and if you are right it will only be by accident. College is too expensive, but it's not because people who work at universities are overpaid.

Overstaffed, overpaid, and on vacation more often than not IME.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#145

Post by junofan » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:36 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #119

Stanford has now reached the point that they recently built an entire 35-acre campus just for administrators. [1] This is completely separate from the main campus and miles away. "The campus provides workspace for about 2,700 employees (including three of the university’s eight vice presidents) working in critical areas such as the School of Medicine administration, libraries and archives, business affairs, human res…

It’s just out of comfortable cycling distance. It’s built to attract talent from peer institutions.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#146

Post by Hermitian909 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:42 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #119

Stanford has now reached the point that they recently built an entire 35-acre campus just for administrators. [1] This is completely separate from the main campus and miles away. "The campus provides workspace for about 2,700 employees (including three of the university’s eight vice presidents) working in critical areas such as the School of Medicine administration, libraries and archives, business affairs, human res…

Stanford and other top institutions can't really be compared to other schools, students fees are not how these institutions make money. There are massive business arms tying in to fortune 500s, political think tanks, government institutions, etc. It's a whole different game for schools at this level.

To understand administrative bloat in the US it's much more instructive to look somewhere like University of Idaho where the business of charging students for services rendered is the main game in town. It's there you can see how administrative services have drastically ballooned costs for just the education.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#147

Post by slg » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:49 AM UTC

google234123 wrote: post #133

gaoshan wrote: post #17

States cut funding to public schools, costs rise to accommodate those cuts which spills over into every part of the education market. At the same time schools increase spending on non-academic upgrades to appeal to prospective students bringing higher costs (and more administrators). I think that may account for the bulk of the increases.

How does increasing admin size by something like 10x make sense when states cut funding to public schools?

I can see that happening in a few steps:

1. State cuts funding

2. Public schools need to raise tuition to make up the difference

3. The gap in price between public and private school decreases

4. Schools need to improve their product to attract students in order to make up for this lost savings

5. Schools work to improve amenities and add ancillary services (and this can now become cyclical when other schools improve, sending you back to step 4 again)

6. The administration bloats as they hire people to work in these new areas.

Basically one person's "administrative bloat" is another persons "investment in attracting students". I think really the only difference between the two is whether the return on investment is positive or not.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#148

Post by ip26 » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:52 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #119

Stanford has now reached the point that they recently built an entire 35-acre campus just for administrators. [1] This is completely separate from the main campus and miles away. "The campus provides workspace for about 2,700 employees (including three of the university’s eight vice presidents) working in critical areas such as the School of Medicine administration, libraries and archives, business affairs, human res…

25,000 employees, that seems insane. They are approaching a 1:1 staff:student ratio.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#149

Post by fredgrott » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:55 AM UTC

It should be pointed out that research universities were always ill-equipped to deal with a high demand of university classes.

What is better is the hub approach of key-research public universities, say five per state and then ten commuter campuses that re-use courseware from the research facalities.

In fact in the USA several states are moving to this model, including such states as Indiana.

Re: Bloated college administration is making education unaffordable

#150

Post by halffaday » Mon, Nov 07, 2022, 1:56 AM UTC

testfoobar wrote: post #110

In the US, both college education and healthcare have become enormous taxpayer wealth extraction schemes. Everyone has a "right" to education and healthcare, therefore we should subsidize it with taxpayer money. That is as far as the politics go. We have stupidly funded the demand side of the equation to where both education and healthcare are incredibly bloated behemoths capable of absorbing all the money thrown at…

I think credit deserves some blame. Schools charge the maximum they expect students to be able to pay, and when students have significant leverage through the bank, those costs rise with it. Very similar conditions in housing. I think administrative bloat is a consequence rather than a cause. Now that the faculty lounge has replaced the factory floor as a reliable voting demographic for you-know-who, I don’t think the subsidies and waste will stop anytime soon.