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Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

scientificamerican.com

21–30 of 99 posts

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#21

Kind of ironic, but the picture used seems to be of a raven - not a crow. Feathers on the beak are quite far out, the shape of the head isn’t as “streamlined” and the top beak is more curved and longer. Or am I mistaken here?

I didn't read the paper but it talks about "Corvids (jays, jackdaws, crows and ravens)" first but it seems like they did experiments using carrion crows (Corvus corone corone).

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#22
post #18

I feed the crows cashews as I walk the dog, and I find their behavior fascinating. They "commute to work" each day. Crows all live in a community that they go home to each night, and then each morning they all come back to their specific areas, usually in pairs. If you're in a place where you see crows every day, it's almost certainly the same pair of crows you’re seeing each day. Each pair has a strict territory. I…

How did you manage to get started? The crows close to me are so skittish that if I try to throw a peanut at them they just fly off and never come back. I've only managed to not have that happen once.

Hmm, if you’re literally throwing it at them, yeah, they don’t like that. You just kinda have to throw it where they can see it, then walk away, and they’ll come running over to scoop them up. Do that for a week or two and they’ll start looking for you. Also, cashews are their favorite (based on watching them pick the cashews out of trail mix and then come back for the other stuff later).

They don’t let me get close to them, but sometimes they do fly up from behind and tap me on the back of the head to get my attention.

Also, unlike the guy up the street, I only throw out a few at a time so they have to sort of follow me to get anything.

My ultimate goal is to be able to point at someone and have the crows attack them like in Bioshock. It’ll be my thing for when society collapses. So far, however, I think our relationship is much more “let’s get some peanuts off this sucker” than “I’ll loyally follow this peanut person into battle”.

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#23
post #18

I feed the crows cashews as I walk the dog, and I find their behavior fascinating. They "commute to work" each day. Crows all live in a community that they go home to each night, and then each morning they all come back to their specific areas, usually in pairs. If you're in a place where you see crows every day, it's almost certainly the same pair of crows you’re seeing each day. Each pair has a strict territory. I…

How did you manage to get started? The crows close to me are so skittish that if I try to throw a peanut at them they just fly off and never come back. I've only managed to not have that happen once.

Just place a few fav seeds where they can see it clearly, soon they will figure it out. Once they start recognizing you (which is very fast, few times tops) they will come. Don’t look or make sudden motions when they are near enough. They don’t like that.

In time some might become more interested in you, depending on mood, and will come closer to you.

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you manage to get started? The crows close to me are so skittish that if I try to throw a peanut at them they just fly off and never come back. I've only managed to not have that happen once.

Hmm, if you’re literally throwing it at them, yeah, they don’t like that. You just kinda have to throw it where they can see it, then walk away, and they’ll come running over to scoop them up. Do that for a week or two and they’ll start looking for you. Also, cashews are their favorite (based on watching them pick the cashews out of trail mix and then come back for the other stuff later). They don’t let me get close…

I few times I made a pointing “forwards” gesture and then went ahead to where I pointed, although they probably knew my route already. But halfway there ;)

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#25

> Some scientists remain skeptical. Arnaud Rey, a senior researcher in psychology at the French National Center for Scientific Research, says the findings can still be interpreted from a simple associative learning standpoint—in which an animal learns to link one symbol to the next, such as connecting an open bracket with a closed one. A key reason, he explains, lies in a feature of the study design: the researchers…

I thought what followed was equally thought-provoking:

"In Rey’s view, the notion of “recursive processing” as a unique form of cognition is in itself flawed. Even in humans, he says, this capacity can most likely be explained simply through associative learning mechanisms..."

AFAIK, this contrasts quite markedly with Chomsky's position that recursion is central to his universal grammar.

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#26
post #6

So, crows, cetaceans, octopuses, and elephants… let’s just be thankful that all of the other smart animals can’t manipulate their environments at scale.

Reminds me of this speculative piece:https://twitter.com/CWingUexkull/status/1554639440873652227?...

tldr is ancient elephants manipulating the environmemt at scale and enslaving ancient humans. Short worthwhile read with fun details to justify the narrative.

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#28
post #18

I feed the crows cashews as I walk the dog, and I find their behavior fascinating. They "commute to work" each day. Crows all live in a community that they go home to each night, and then each morning they all come back to their specific areas, usually in pairs. If you're in a place where you see crows every day, it's almost certainly the same pair of crows you’re seeing each day. Each pair has a strict territory. I…

How did you manage to get started? The crows close to me are so skittish that if I try to throw a peanut at them they just fly off and never come back. I've only managed to not have that happen once.

Crows are companions-to-hunters (wolves and humans mostly.) They interpret your behavior through that "lens".

If you set out food and then watch them that means (in crow) that you are a hunter, and a lousy one, and you're trying to hunt them.

Toss out some food and "forget" it and they'll think you're such a successful hunter that you don't even need to every scrap. Someone worth knowing.

In the old days, crows would go on the hunt with us and fly over hidden game in the bush dipping a wing in a certain way to let you know where it is, then you share the meat with them. They still remember even if most of us have forgotten. ;)

Re: Crows are capable of recursion, scientists claim

#29

I feed the crows cashews as I walk the dog, and I find their behavior fascinating. They "commute to work" each day. Crows all live in a community that they go home to each night, and then each morning they all come back to their specific areas, usually in pairs. If you're in a place where you see crows every day, it's almost certainly the same pair of crows you’re seeing each day. Each pair has a strict territory. I…

Around where I live (southern New York), the crows seem to gather in groups of twenty or so as sunset approaches, and appear to be socializing (and making quite a lot of noise in the process.) There does not seem to be any fixed location where this happens, and it seems different from when they are mobbing a raptor, where the target of their ire can quickly be seen from the way the crows are directing their attention towards it.

I can't say whether it occurs only at certain times of the year, and I have not paid any attention to where the birds go afterwards.

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