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What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

nautil.us

11–20 of 66 posts

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#11
> In fact, having depression is generally much worse than having diabetes

As a T1 diabetic, the fun part is that diabetes is highly correlated with depression. So it's very common for depression to follow diabetes. Sucks to have to deal with both. It's a vicious cycle, because depression makes it harder to manage your diabetes, and poorly managed diabetes is correlated with more severe depression symptoms.

Not exactly an "either or" problem. I'd rather just have depression, because at least there would be hope for treatment and remission. My diabetes will never be cured.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#12

> If you’re smart, people say, you should work toward a good future, sacrificing fun and pleasure in the present. Yeah, this is the conventional wisdom, but that doesn't make it right. Life is a tricky beast. You can do "all the right things" - and many of us do - and still have suboptimal outcomes. Furthermore, thinking about the future is a luxury of leisure. That is, day to day, when the vast majority of your ener…

The only truth is in personal hedonism I am convinced.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#13
post #8

Behold, one of the most dangerous and toxic forms of stupid: the LABCOAT-FLASHER. Do not fall for the verbal trickeries and hypotheticals - they are the syntactic sugar masking various POISONS: 1) There is no “you” that is meaningfully apart from “your brain”. This trickery is meant to dissociate you from your body and backdoor sneak-in the labcoat-flasher as a co-conspiritor against yourself. It is every bit as gasl…

1) There's also your body, in the arms and legs and torso sense, which is you, but it's not your brain. There's also your non conscious part (whether you want to include a Freud style subconscious, or autonomous functioning parts that reach a decision way before it has registered as a conscious though) which is your brain, but not exactly "you" as you think of you. Plus all kind of body-produced chemicals and hormone…

1) It sounds from what you write that you agree, even if reluctantly so, because "there is no diff". For completeness sake, I want to clarify that I believe in something far stronger than your reluctant resignation: that the whole conscious/subconscious separation, the body/head/hormone separation, that these are all artificial and wrong categorizations. There is one you, the whole you, no part meaningfully separable from the other, not "diff"able, because the hormones are not some external force acting on The Real You (TM) but a physical manifestation of The One You (TM). If you manipulate body/head/hormones, you literally change The One You, to varying degrees depending on the intervention, obviously.

2) I disagree on 2 counts.

a) Thinking you'll get away with something is categorically different from knowing it. Nobody ever experiences this sort of assuredness and we cannot extrapolate our behavior under volatility to conditions of certainty. The closest we come to it are the most meaningless actions (like me reaching for a water bottle, "knowing" that I will touch it and lift it up), but no meaningfully large action, and certainly not a single one that involves other conscious beings is ever experienced as certain.

b) Humans are not fundamentally probability-modeling animals. When your bottle slips and shatters on the hiking trail, nobody - not a single human soul - runs Monte Carlo simulations on where those shards might end up and what that might mean for the future of humanity and "solves back" the right action. It is a complete category error to model human actions as such. Probability estimates have their (limited) place in (rare) human decisions, but even then it is not an exact fit.

This whole crystal-ball exercise is at best a lazy attempt by Lee, because it is easy and convenient to talk about the robo-human caricatures of his imagination. He is basically shaking his fist ADMONISHING YOU to behave more like the simplified easily-quantified caricatures so he can study you easier get his MacArthur Genius Grant goddammit.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artists aren't limited to possible futures though, I'd encourage more of them to imagine the impossible, as well.

The impossible as opposed to the merely not plausible, isn't really alluring for art, as it's neither a depiction of what's there (art as mirror), nor a warning (artist as Cassandra or sensitive guard), and not even a call to arms (art as politics, utopia). In other words, it doesn't relate to the artist and us. It only relates when there's a thread that connects what's imagined to where we are, where we might be, or…

Obviously false statement, given the genre of fiction.

Also, objective impossible is wildly different from any individual subjective one.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#15
post #14
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The impossible as opposed to the merely not plausible, isn't really alluring for art, as it's neither a depiction of what's there (art as mirror), nor a warning (artist as Cassandra or sensitive guard), and not even a call to arms (art as politics, utopia). In other words, it doesn't relate to the artist and us. It only relates when there's a thread that connects what's imagined to where we are, where we might be, or…

Obviously false statement, given the genre of fiction. Also, objective impossible is wildly different from any individual subjective one.

>Obviously false statement, given the genre of fiction.

Obviously we are aware of the genre of fiction. Or science fiction for that matter. Or superhero comics, or supernatural stories, and so on. So my point wasn't that e.g. vampire fiction doesn't exist or isn't interesting to writers and reader.

But nothing in the genre of fiction is really about the impossible. That is just metaphor and plot device for what was, is, or can be.

If there's a superhero with laser eyes and super-strength, it's not about the superhero, but about the idea of heroism, the responsibility of power, the connections with people, the repercusions of actions, and so on. It's the connection with the existing and the possible that makes it interesting.

The non-realistic part is just background.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#16
My brain isn’t into the future because of climate change, the threat of WWIII/nuclear war, The Economy, possible future pandemics like the one of 2020, and not being able to retire until I’m 70. But please do Gee Wiz me all you want about logical fallacies, nautil dot us.

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) There's also your body, in the arms and legs and torso sense, which is you, but it's not your brain. There's also your non conscious part (whether you want to include a Freud style subconscious, or autonomous functioning parts that reach a decision way before it has registered as a conscious though) which is your brain, but not exactly "you" as you think of you. Plus all kind of body-produced chemicals and hormone…

1) It sounds from what you write that you agree, even if reluctantly so, because "there is no diff". For completeness sake, I want to clarify that I believe in something far stronger than your reluctant resignation: that the whole conscious/subconscious separation, the body/head/hormone separation, that these are all artificial and wrong categorizations. There is one you, the whole you, no part meaningfully separable…

>a) Thinking you'll get away with something is categorically different from knowing it. Nobody ever experiences this sort of assuredness

That's not really important at the personal behavior level (the thing we're discussing, and which the article addresses) though, but more of a pedantic dictinction, isn't it?

We can't even be sure that we'll not die from a sudden heart attack in the next 10 minutes, but we nonetheless act and plan as if we have a 100% certainty that we wont, and we even feel that way (that is, we don't feel as this is an "open thing", we thing we'll live just fine - except those of us who have a related phobia and anxiety).

>When your bottle slips and shatters on the hiking trail, nobody - not a single human soul - runs Monte Carlo simulations on where those shards might end up and what that might mean for the future of humanity and "solves back" the right action.

I'd say most humans will worry about somebody stepping on the glass on a public trail (or even less pressing concerns, like the impact of the litter on the environment, the possibility of the sun starting a fire through the shards, and so on) and will try to pick those shards. Heck, many will feel guilt if they don't.

Whether they run Monte Carlo simulations or just use some conscious rational logic to deduce the possible issue, is not really important to the question, is it?

So, the question would remain, why do we care for the possibility in the future of someone we don't even know stepping on the shards in 1 day or 1 year or 5 years, but not for other consequences of our actions far further in the future?

I'd say the real answer is because they're too dispersed (based on many levels of n-th order effects and cascading consequences) and too remote (1-2 generations in the future is beyond a reasonable horizon for most people).

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#18
post #4

Behold, one of the most dangerous and toxic forms of stupid: the LABCOAT-FLASHER. Do not fall for the verbal trickeries and hypotheticals - they are the syntactic sugar masking various POISONS: 1) There is no “you” that is meaningfully apart from “your brain”. This trickery is meant to dissociate you from your body and backdoor sneak-in the labcoat-flasher as a co-conspiritor against yourself. It is every bit as gasl…

People can't even be considerate of others who exist, let alone those who are yet to be. Should a 15 year old bear the weight of their future offspring when deciding to sneak out of the house to drink with friends? It's impossible to know the totality of outcomes associated with an action and the author's examples are pretty simplistic. What if that glass you dropped and shattered becomes a tool of survival for a per…

One, a 15 year old bear is a fully mature adult and can make its own decision. And two, I assume you meant den, because what bear lives in a house?

Re: What you can’t imagine clearly, you value less

#20

Behold, one of the most dangerous and toxic forms of stupid: the LABCOAT-FLASHER. Do not fall for the verbal trickeries and hypotheticals - they are the syntactic sugar masking various POISONS: 1) There is no “you” that is meaningfully apart from “your brain”. This trickery is meant to dissociate you from your body and backdoor sneak-in the labcoat-flasher as a co-conspiritor against yourself. It is every bit as gasl…

I need to hear a restatement of 3) that doesn't rely on the word "equal" or "egalitarian" without defining them in the context of the argument you're making.

What does it mean to say that everyone is or isn't "equal?" Are you trying to say that people are distinct (i.e. there is more than one person)? Are you trying to say that people aren't the same height, and there are others insisting that they are? What are you saying?

The first two are very clear.

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