Live data from Hacker News

Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

boxofcables.dev

231–240 of 242 posts

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#231
post #6

The Devil's rummaging through his closet for some mittens.

This comment made me LOL. Thank you, that's pretty funny. I was curious if this was a saying I'd never heard of or if you just came up with it. Seems you just came up with this? What's amazing is that Google already has this HN post indexed and you're already the first hit for the phrase. And even weirder, Google says that they (currently) indexed it 56 minutes ago, when HN reports you posted it 23 minutes ago. Googl…

> I was curious if this was a saying I'd never heard of or if you just came up with it. Seems you just came up with this?

It's just a variation on similar sayings like "the devil's putting on ice skates".

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#232
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically said NT APIs to differentiate from the Windows APIs. And my "just like WINE" comment was more to differentiate what they were doing with WSL1 from WSL2. My use of "just like" is too strong there. And I also don't think any of the problems were insurmountable. I'm still disappointed that they gave up on WSL1. (At least partially because I thought the whole Windows Subsystem concept was neat design)

> I specifically said NT APIs to differentiate from the Windows APIs. It depends on what you mean by "NT APIs". If you mean the NT API exposed to user-mode (NT syscalls), no, that is insufficient to implement WSL1 (or anything else like it). If you mean to include kernel-mode-only NT APIs (including undocumented/private APIs which MS doesn't expose to third parties, even new APIs added specifically for WSL1 to consum…

Ah my mistake about the subsystem implementation. My memory was fuzzy given the 5+ years since I read Windows Internals 7th Edition. Thanks for the correction!

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#233
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really realistic ? Why would Microsoft get into the Linux Enterprise market?

Because Azure is the new OS, and for better or worse, UNIX was won the server room wars, with Linux being the most used variant nowadays. However with containers running directly on top of hypervisors and serverless, it is only a matter of time until the actuall OS of the server room is irrelevant. Until then, Linux and BSD (which they also support) are business relevant.

But I mean they dont have to have their own distro?

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really realistic ? Why would Microsoft get into the Linux Enterprise market?

>> Why would Microsoft get into the Linux Enterprise market? Azure integration

They can do that without buying canonical surely?

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>systemd (Lennart Poettering) I see they are still going strong on the embrace, extend extinguish strategy.

To be fair, systemd started when Poettering was at Red Hat. He was EEEing Linux even before he was at Microsoft :^)

Redhats whole business model was to make linux too complex to understand by anyone not at redhat.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is unlikely even Microsoft would succeed in replacing the NT kernel with the Linux kernel. NT has features which Linux kernel devs have actively opposed including – such as alternate data stream support in its VFS/IFS layer, and a stable device driver ABI. So even supposing – and I'd be rather surprised if it were to ever actually happen – Microsoft were to release the NT kernel under a GPL-compatible lice…

Love your response. Im sure you’re right about all of those details if a strict translation was needed. I just don’t believe it needs to be so strict, and as such that it is not that difficult these days. Apple’s Rosetta 2 and Valve’s Proton have shown that these kind of emulations can be extremely effective. When you control the OS code, and are willing to be extremely hacky for the medium term, anything is possible…

> Apple’s Rosetta 2 and Valve’s Proton have shown that these kind of emulations can be extremely effective.

Rosetta and Rosetta 2 are CPU emulation with the same underlying OS – so quite a different problem from what WINE/Proton/etc address. And something Microsoft actually already has anyway – their implementation is less impressive than Apple's in terms of performance, although it can do some interesting things which Apple's can't – in particular, mix emulated x86-64 and native ARM code in a single binary image and process (Arm64EC) – Apple fat binaries are two completely separate binaries concatenated together into a single file, only one of which is actually loaded; Windows Arm64EC binaries mix x86-64 and Aarch64 code in a single binary image, so one function can be native and the other emulated. A program can be native Aarch64, but still be able to load legacy x86-64 plugin DLLs, with some performance penalty incurred for the later [0] – something Rosetta or Rosetta 2 can't do, although Classic MacOS had similar support for mixing emulated 68k and native PPC code in a single process.

Valve's Proton is just a fork of Wine, and it works great for a carefully curated subset of games. However, games are a relatively narrow category of applications, there are lots of things other categories of applications will do which games never will.

> 3. Build a binary parser like Rosetta that detects use of any incompatible Windows APIs

Sometimes, the problem is not with the APIs themselves, but particular patterns of using them. A straightforward emulation of a Win32 API under Linux will behave the same for the vast majority of cases, but in rare edge cases will behave differently. Inspecting a binary to detect what APIs it uses won't tell you whether it is one of the minority of APIs which depends on one of those edge cases. Sometimes the developers themselves won't even know, because it is not unheard of for developers to do weird stupid things by accident rather than intention, yet it just so happens they work, and they don't even realise they've done something weird and stupid.

The biggest problem with your proposal, is will the huge dollar investment it would require of Microsoft, actually be worth it for them? Even if (maybe) saves money in the long run, it will cost a lot more in the short-to-medium term. And the fact is, Windows licensing revenue is still massive enough to more than pay for what Microsoft is spending on Windows development, so there is no financial pressure for them to save money in the long-run – and migrating Windows to Linux would make it easier for their customers to migrate away from Windows, hence risking that revenue stream. Why take such a big risk with one of their cash cows for such an unclear benefit for them?

[0] https://devblogs.microsoft.com/windows-music-dev/load-x64-pl...

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>systemd (Lennart Poettering) I see they are still going strong on the embrace, extend extinguish strategy.

To be fair, systemd started when Poettering was at Red Hat. He was EEEing Linux even before he was at Microsoft :^)

Is systemd bad?

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#238
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Being ok with big company participation gets you Linux and / or FreeBSD. Not being ok with it gets you HURD. I am ok with it.

Erm, Linux is GPL. Apple built on BSD. Which is doing better? Participation != appropriation.

> Participation != appropriation.

As someone who contributes to BSD licensed code, please don’t tell me my users are “appropriating” my work. I’m happy my code is being used, and the more the merrier.

Re: Is CBL-Mariner going to become Microsoft Linux?

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, systemd started when Poettering was at Red Hat. He was EEEing Linux even before he was at Microsoft :^)

Is systemd bad?

It felt it was being forced on me when various distributions switched to it. And it was something new and buggy to learn that I didn't wanted to deal with.

The general idea behind it are good in my opinion. But the problem is how confusing and slow the god damn thing is.

Try overriding a service definition? You must know to set exec to empty string before you are allowed to override it. Really first line sets to "" second to the value you want. Just weird.

Try getting the logs of the service you just edited and restarted? Wait 10s on a flagship computer for the 5 lines of log to show up.

Systemd stores logs in binary. That takes more storage space than gzipped text. While being about 100x or more slower than zcat and co.

Post reply on HN