I think tiktok is doing incredibly well in this regards and in almost every social network aspect. Call me crazy but I now prefer the discussions there as HN's most of the time. I find high-quality comments (and there is still good jokes in the middle). The other day I felt upon a video about physics which had the most incredibly deep and knowlegeable comments Ive ever seen ( edit: found the video, it is not as good…
>mostly it kind of understand you so well that it put you right in the middle of like minded people Doesn't this build echo chambers where beliefs get more and more extreme? Good from a business perspective (nobody gets pissed off and leaves because they don't see much that they object to). But perhaps bad from a maintaining-democracy perspective?
Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
601–610 of 975 posts
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#602Yeah well, Yishan failed miserably at topic moderation on Reddit, and generally speaking Reddit has notoriously awful moderation policies that end up allowing users to run their own little fiefdoms just because they name-squatted earliest on a given topic. Additionally, Reddit (also notoriously) allowed some horrendously toxic behavior to continue on its site (jailbait, fatpeoplehate, the_donald, conservative current…
Do you have any arguments addressing what he actually said, or is this just a reverse argument to authority?
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#603Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't mean persuade them out of their opinions on $topic! I mean persuade them to express their opinions in a thoughtful, curious way that doesn't break the site guidelines - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .
Sufficiently controversial opinions are flagged, downvoted til dead/hidden, or associated users shadow banned. HN's policies and voting system, both de facto and de jure, discourage controversial opinions and reward popular, conformist opinions. That's not to pick on HN, since this is a common problem. Neither do I have a silver bullet solution, but the issue remains, and it's a huge issue. Evolution of norms, for be…
People always reach immediately for the conclusion that their controversial comments are getting moderated because people dislike their opinion—either because of groupthink in the community or because the admins are hostile to their views. Most of the time, though, they've larded their comments pre-emptively with some sort of hostility, snark, name-calling, or other aggression—no doubt because they expect to be opposed and want to make it clear they already know that, don't care what the sheeple think, and so on.
The way the group and/or the admins respond to those comments is often a product of those secondary mixins. Forgive the gross analogy, but it's as if someone serves a shit milkshake and when it's rejected, say, "you just hate dairy products" or "this community is so biased against milkshakes".
If you start instead from the principle that the value of a comment is the expected value of the subthread it forms the root of [1], then a commenter is responsible for the effects of their comments [2] – at least the predictable ones. From that it follows that there's a greater burden on the commenter who's expressing a contrarian view [3]. The more contrarian the view—the further it falls outside the community's tolerance—the more responsibility that commenter has for not triggering degenerative effects like flamewars.
This may be counterintuitive, because we're used to thinking in terms of atomic individual responsibility, but it's a model that actually works. Threads are molecules, not atoms—they're a cocreation, like one of those drawing games where each person fills in part of a shared picture [4], or like a dance—people respond to the other's movements. A good dancer takes the others into account.
It may be unfair that the one with a contrarian view is more responsible for what happens—especially because they're already under greater pressure than the one whose views agree with the surround. But fair or not, it's the way communication works. If you're trying to deliver challenging information to someone, you have to take that person into account—you have to regulate what you say by what the listener is capable to hear and to tolerate. Otherwise you're predictably going to dysregulate them and ruin the conversation.
Contrarian commenters usually do the opposite of this—they express their contrarian opinion in a deliberately aggressive and uncompromising way, probably because (I'm repeating myself sorry) they expect to be rejected anyhow, and it's safer to be inside the armor of "you people can't handle the truth!" than it is to really communicate, i.e. to connect and relate.
This model is the last thing that most contrarian-opinion commenters want to adopt, because it's hard and risky, and because usually they have pre-existing hurt feelings from being battered repeatedly with majoritarian opinions already (especially the case when identity is at issue, such as being from a minority population along some axis). But it's the one that actually has a hope of working, and is by far the best solution I know of to the problem of unconventional opinions in groups.
Are there some views which are so far beyond the community's tolerance that any mention in any form will immediately blow up the thread, making the above model impossible? Yes, but they're rare and extreme and not usually the thing people have in mind. I think it's better to stick to the 95% or 99% case when having this discussion.
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#604Isn't it inconsistent to both say "moderation decisions are about behavior, not content", and "platforms can't justify moderation decisions because of privacy reasons". It seems like you wouldn't need to reveal any details about the content of the behavior, but just say "look, this person posted X times, or was reported Y times", etc... I find the author to be really hand-wavy around why this part is difficult. I wor…
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#605Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's basically just public nuisance, like driving up and down a street blaring your favorite club banger at 3AM. More uncharitably its a lot like littering, public urination, or graffiti.
Spammers are also using a public space for their own selfish gain, which makes them freeloaders.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#606> 3: Could you still moderate if you canʻt read the language?
Except, moderators do read the language. If think it is pretty self-serving to say that users views of moderation decisions are biased by content but moderators views are not.
> 2: Freedom of speech was NEVER the issue (c.f. spam)
Spam isn't considered a free speech issue because we generally accept that spam moderation is done based on behavior in a content-blind way.
This doesn't magically mean that any given moderation team isn't impinging free speech. Especially when there are misinformation policies in place which are explicitly content-based.
> 1: It is a signal-to-noise management issue
Signal-to-noise management is part of why moderation can be good, but it doesn't even justify the examples from the twitter thread. Moderation is about creating positive experiences on the platform and signal-to-noise is just part of that.
The
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#607There were indeed some intelligent, thoughtful, novel insights about moderation in that thread. There were also... two commercial breaks to discuss his new venture? Eww. While discussing how spam is the least controversial type of noise you want to filter out? I appreciate the good content, I'm just not used to seeing product placement wedged in like that.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#608Yeah well, Yishan failed miserably at topic moderation on Reddit, and generally speaking Reddit has notoriously awful moderation policies that end up allowing users to run their own little fiefdoms just because they name-squatted earliest on a given topic. Additionally, Reddit (also notoriously) allowed some horrendously toxic behavior to continue on its site (jailbait, fatpeoplehate, the_donald, conservative current…
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#609Earlier quoted context omitted.
Slashdot started introducing features like this 20 years ago. We thought ”web of trust” would be the future of content moderation, but subsequent forums have moved further and further away from empowering users to choose what they want to see and towards simple top down censorship.
Web of trust works too well and unfortunate ideas can be entertained by someone you trust, which is a no-no once you have top-down ideas. Almost everyone has someone they trust so much that even the most insane conspiracy theory would be entertained at least for awhile if that trusted person brought it up.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#610At least one missing element is that of reputation . I don't think it should work exactly like it does in the real world, but the absence of it seems to always lead to major problems. The cost of being a jerk online is too low - it's almost entirely free of any consequences. Put another way, not everyone deserves a megaphone. Not everyone deserves to chime in on any conversation they want. The promise of online discu…
Couldn't agree more here.
Going back to the "US Postal service allows spam" comment made by Yishan, well yes, the US postal service will deliver mail that someone has PAID to have delivered, they've also paid to have it printed. There's not a zero cost here and most businesses will not send physical spam if there weren't at least some return on investment.
One big problem not even touched by Yishan is vote manipulation, or to put it in your terms, artificially boosted reputation. I consider those to be problems with the platform. Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen a platform that can solve the problem of "you, as an individual, have ONE voice". It's too easy for users to make multiple accounts, get banned, create a new one, etc.
At the same time, nobody who's creating a platform for users will want to make it HARDER for users to sign up. Recently Blizzard tried to address this (in spirit) by forcing users to use a phone number and not allowing "burner numbers" (foolishly determined by "if your phone number is pre-paid"). It completely backfired for being too exclusionary. I personally hate the idea of Blizzard knowing and storing my phone number. However, the idea that it should be more and more difficult or costly for toxic users to participate in the platform after they've been banned is not, on its own, a silly idea.