Yeah well, Yishan failed miserably at topic moderation on Reddit, and generally speaking Reddit has notoriously awful moderation policies that end up allowing users to run their own little fiefdoms just because they name-squatted earliest on a given topic. Additionally, Reddit (also notoriously) allowed some horrendously toxic behavior to continue on its site (jailbait, fatpeoplehate, the_donald, conservative current…
Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
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Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#592> Because it is not TOPICS that are censored. It is BEHAVIOR. > (This is why people on the left and people on the right both think they are being targeted) An enticing idea but simply not the case for any popular existing social network. And it's triply not true on yishan's reddit which both through administrative measures and moderation culture targets any and all communities that do not share the favoured new-left…
I mean that's the claim, the counter-claim would require a social network banning topics and not behavior. Note: As a user you can see topics, you can't see behavior. The fact that some users flood other users' DM's is not visible to all users. So how do you know? "I don't trust left-y CEO's", is a fair enough answer, but really that's where the counter-claim seems to end. Now that we have a right-wing CEO, looks lik…
True, but not really a good argument for the "trust us, this person needed banning, no we will not give any details"-style of moderation that most companies have applied so far. And you can see topics, so you'll generally notice when topic are being banned, not behavior, because they usually don't align perfectly.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#593Yeah well, Yishan failed miserably at topic moderation on Reddit, and generally speaking Reddit has notoriously awful moderation policies that end up allowing users to run their own little fiefdoms just because they name-squatted earliest on a given topic. Additionally, Reddit (also notoriously) allowed some horrendously toxic behavior to continue on its site (jailbait, fatpeoplehate, the_donald, conservative current…
Do you have any arguments addressing what he actually said, or is this just a reverse argument to authority?
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#594This is a very good way to pitch your afforestation startup accelerator in the guise of a talk on platform moderation. /s I'm pretty sure I've got some bones to pick with yishan from his tenure on Reddit, but everything he's said here is pretty understandable. Actually, I would like to develop his point about "censoring spam" a bit further. It's often said that the Internet "detects censorship as damage and routes ar…
Censorship in the traditional sense is close to impossible online today.
Today censorship is often and most effectively about suppressing your ability to be heard, often by flooding out the good communications with nonsense, spam, abuse, or discrediting it by association (e.g. fill the forums of a political opponents with apparent racists). This turns the neigh uncensorability of modern communications methods on its head and makes it into a censorship tool.
And, ironically, anyone trying to use moderation to curb this sort of censorious abuse is easily accused of 'censorship' themselves.
I remain convinced that the best tool we have is topicality: When a venue has a defined topic you can moderate just to stay onto the topic without a lot of debatable value judgements (or bruised egos-- no reason to feel too bad about a post being moved or removed for being offtopic). Unfortunately, the structure of twitter pretty much abandons this critical tool.
(and with reddit increasingly usurping moderation from subreddit moderators, it's been diminished there)
Topicality doesn't solve all moderation issues, but once an issue has become too acrimonious it will inherently go off-topic: e.g. if your topic is some video game well participants calling each other nasty names is clearly off-topic. Topicality also reduces the incidence of trouble coming in from divisive issues that some participants just aren't interested in discussing-- If I'm on a forum for a video game I probably don't really want to debate abortion with people.
In this thread we see good use of topicality at the top with Dang explicitly marking complaints about long form twitter offtopic.
When it comes to spam scaling considerations mean that you need to be able to deal with much of it without necessarily understanding the content. I don't think this should be confused with content blindness being desirable in and of itself. Abusive/unwelcoming interactions can occur both in the form (e.g. someone stalking some around from thread to thread or repeating an argument endlessly) and and in the content (continually re-litigating divisive/flame-bate issues that no one else wants to talk about, vile threatening messages, etc.)
Related to topicality is that some users just don't want to interact with each other. We don't have to make a value judgement about one vs the other if we can provide space so that they don't need to interact. Twitter's structure isn't great for this either, but more the nature of near-monopoly mega platforms isn't great for it. Worse, twitter actively make it hard-- e.g. if you've not followed someone who is network-connected to other people you follow twitter continually recommends their tweets (as a friend said: "No twitter, there is a reason I'm not following them") and because blocking is visible using it often creates drama.
There are some subjects on HN where I might otherwise comment but I don't because I'd prefer to avoid interacting with a Top Poster who will inevitably be active in those subjects. Fortunately, there are plenty of other places where I can discuss those things where that poster isn't active.
Even a relatively 'small' forum can easily have as many users as many US states populations at the founding of the country. I don't think that we really need to have mega platforms with literally everyone on them and I see a fair amount of harm from it (including the effects of monoculture moderation gone wrong).
In general, I think the less topic constrained you can make a venue the smaller it needs to be-- a completely topic-less social venue probably should have no more than a few dozen people. Twitter is both mega-topicless and ultra-massive-- an explosive mixture which will inevitably disappoint.
Another tool I think many people have missed the value of is procedural norms including decorum. I don't believe that using polite language actually makes someone polite (in fact, the nastiest and most threatening remarks I've ever received were made with perfectly polite language)-- but some people are just unable to regulate their own behavior. When there is an easily followed set of standards for conduct you gain a bright line criteria that makes it easier to eject people who are too unable to control themselves. Unfortunately, I think the value of a otherwise pointless procedural conformity test is often lost on people today, though they appear common in historical institutions. (Maybe a sign of the ages of the creators of these things: As a younger person I certainly grated against 'pointless' conformity requirements, as an older person I see more ways that their value can pay for their costs: I'd rather not waste my time on someone who can't even manage to go through the motions to meet the venue's standards)
Early on in Wikipedia I think we got a lot of mileage out of this: the nature of the site essentially hands every user a loaded gun (ability to edit almost everything, including elements on the site UI) and then tells them not to do use it abusively rather than trying to technically prevent them from using it abusively. Some people can't resist and are quickly kicked out without too much drama. Had those same people been technically prevented they would have hung around longer and created trouble that was harder to kick them out over (and I think as the site added more restrictions on new/casual users the number of issues from poorly behaved users increased).
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#595It seems like you wouldn't need to reveal any details about the content of the behavior, but just say "look, this person posted X times, or was reported Y times", etc... I find the author to be really hand-wavy around why this part is difficult.
I work with confidential data, and we track personal information through our system and scrub it at the boundaries (say, when porting it from our primary DB to our systems for monitoring or analysis). I know many other industries (healthcare, education, government, payments) face very similar issues...
So why don't any social network companies already do this?
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#596Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#597My take: "Flamebait" is a completely accurate label for the content your loudest users don't want to see, but it's by definition your loudest users who are actually doing the flaming, and by definition they disagree with the things they're flaming. So all this does is reward people for flamewars, while the moderators effectively crusade on behalf of the flamers. But it's "okay" because, by definition, the moderators are going to be people who agree with the political views of the loudest viewers (if they weren't they'd get heckled off), so the mods you actually get will be perfectly happy with this situation. Neither the mods nor the loudest users have any reason to dislike or see any problem with this arrangement. So why is it a problem? Because it leads to what I'll call a flameocracy: whoever flames loudest gets their way as the platform will align with their desires (in order to reduce how often they flame). The mods and the platform are held hostage by these users but are suffering literal Stockholm Syndrome as they fear setting off their abusers (the flamers).
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#598Top-level moderation of any sufficiently cliquey group (i.e. all large groups) devolves into something resembling feudalism. As the king of the land, you're in charge of being just and meting out appropriate punishment/censorship/other enforcement of rules, as well as updating those rules themselves. Your goal at the end of the day is continuing to provide support for your product, administration/upkeep for your gaming community, or whatever else it was that you wanted to do when you created the platform in question. However, the cliques (whether they be friend groups, opinionated but honest users, actual political camps, or any other tribal construct) will always view your actions through a cliquey lens. This will happen no matter how clear or consistent your reasoning is, unless you fully automate moderation (which never works and would probably be accused of bias by design anyways).
The reason why this looks feudal is because you still must curry favor with those cliques, lest the greater userbase eventually buys into their reasoning about favoritism, ideological bias, or whatever else we choose to call it. At the end of the day, the dedicated users have much more time and energy to argue, or propagandize, or skirt rules than any moderation team has to counteract it. If you're moderating users of a commercial product, it hurts your public image (with some nebulous impact on sales/marketing). If you're moderating a community for a game or software project, it hurts the reputation of the community and makes your moderators/developers/donators uneasy.
The only approach I've decided unambiguously works is one that doesn't scale well at all, and that's the veil of secrecy or "council of elders" approach which Yishan discusses. The king stays behind the veil, and makes as few public statements as possible. Reasoning is only given insofar as is needed to explain decisions, only responding directly to criticism as needed to justify actions taken anyways. Trusted elites from the userbase are taken into confidence, and the assumption is that they give a marginally more transparent look into how decisions are made, and that they pacify their cliques.
Above all, the most important fact I've had to keep in mind is that the outspoken users, both those legitimately passionate as well as those simply trying to start shit, are a tiny minority of users. Most people are rational and recognize that platforms/communities exist for a reason, and they're fine with respecting that since it's what they're there for. When moderating, the outspoken group is nearly all you'll ever see. Catering to passionate, involved users is justifiable, but must still be balanced with what the majority wants, or is at least able to tolerate (the "silent majority" which every demagogue claims to represent). That catering must also be done carefully, because "bad actors" who seek action/change/debate for the sake of stoking conflict or their own benefit will do their best to appear legitimate.
For some of this (e.g. spam), you can filter it comfortably as Yishan discusses without interacting with the content. However, more developed bad actor behavior is really quite good at blending in with legitimate discussion. If you as king recognize that there's an inorganic flamewar, or abuse directed at a user, or spam, or complaint about a previous decision, you have no choice but to choose a cudgel (bans, filters, changes to rules, etc) and use it decisively. It is only when the king appears weak or indecisive (or worse, absent) that a platform goes off the rails, and at that point it takes immense effort to recover it (e.g. your C-level being cleared as part of a takeover, or a seemingly universally unpopular crackdown by moderation). As a lazy comparison, Hacker News is about as old as Twitter, and any daily user can see the intensive moderation which keeps it going despite the obvious interest groups at play. This is in spite of the fact that HN has less overhead to make an account and begin posting, and seemingly more ROI on influencing discussion (lots of rich/smart/fancy people post here regularly, let alone read).
Due to the need for privacy, moderation fundamentally cannot be democratic or open. Pretty much anyone contending otherwise is just upset at a recent decision or is trying to cause trouble for administration. Aspirationally, we would like the general direction of the platform to be determined democratically, but the line between these two is frequently blurry at best. To avoid extra drama, I usually aim to do as much discussion with users as possible, but ultimately perform all decisionmaking behind closed doors -- this is more or less the "giant faceless corporation" approach. Nobody knows how much I (or Elon, or Zuck, or the guys running the infinitely many medium-large discord servers) actually take into account user feedback.
I started writing this as a reply to paradite, but decided against that after going far out of scope.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#599Earlier quoted context omitted.
The original post is paradoxical in the very way it talks about social media being paradoxical. He observes that social media moderation is about signal to noise. Then he goes on about introducing off-topic noise. Then, he comes to conclusions that seem to ignore his original conclusion about it being a S/N problem. Chiefly, he doesn't show how a "council of elders" is necessary to solve S/N problems. Strangely enoug…
I think the key is that no moderation can withstand outside pressure. A community can be entirely consistent and happy but the moment outside pressure is applied it folds or falls.
Re: Ex-Reddit CEO on Twitter moderation
#600Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think that's right. One benefit this has: if you can make the moderation about behavior (I prefer the word effects [1]) rather than about the person, then you have a chance to persuade them to behave differently. Some people, maybe even most, adjust their behavior in response to feedback. Over time, this can compound into community-level effects (culture etc.) - that's the hope, anyhow. I think I've seen such chang…
You're doing a good job dang. ... kinda wondering if this is the sort of OT post we're supposed to avoid, it would be class if you chastised me for it. But anyway, glad you're here to keep us in check and steer the community so well.
Empty comments can be ok if they're positive. There's nothing wrong with submitting a comment saying just "Thanks." What we especially discourage are comments that are empty and negative—comments that are mere name-calling.
It's true that empty positive comments don't add much information but they have a different healthy role (assuming they aren't promotional)