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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#661

Post by TomSwirly »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #544
pmonks wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates. [edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I know he will get a fantastic education at most schools. But he truly is a special kid who gets inspired by super smart people and thrives on challenges, and will do better at Cal, Caltech, Harvey Mudd etc. We're not looking at non-STEM schools and Ivies -- I guess they don't want us and we don't want them.

>> Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates.

> But he truly is a special kid who gets inspired by super smart people and thrives on challenges, and will do better at Cal, Caltech, Harvey Mudd etc.

As opposed to UW, UBC and Waterloo, which are filled with less intelligent people? It is laughable.

My theory - you have precisely zero idea what those schools even are.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#662

Post by Kleinlieu »

helloworld11 wrote: post #604
Tozen wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic. The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women. White Women and Affir…

>That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The…

Every generation inherits the debts of the past and a duty to pay it down. Just because I was born into this world and personally did not endorse the use of CFCs or the petrodollar system doesn’t mean I’m absolved of being a participant in finding solutions to the nth-order effects these technologies introduce into the world.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#663

Post by int_19h »

physicsgraph wrote: post #7

I've been active in reforming voting systems since I think that makes a difference to how politics works. Is there a path or actions that address class issues other than the standard "run for office" and "vote for people who will address class-related issues"?

You should be aware that you won't be able to avoid politics around race when it comes to electoral reform - because of stuff like this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/09/nyregion/ranked-choice-la...

(Note that it doesn't matter whether they have a point or not. What matters is that now, either way, you'll have to talk about it whenever RCV comes up. There is similar contention around IRV and some other methods; basically anything that disrupts existing power arrangements.)

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#664

Post by vinay427 »

rayiner wrote: post #612
worik wrote: post #581

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, I…

Do you live in the U.S.? Because, as a minority myself, I'm really at a loss to understand what you mean by "[we] live in a racist society." Also, what the hell is this supposed to mean: > For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. Most folks at Harvard law are going to go to corporate law firms, where most of the clien…

They mentioned “here” to be Aotearoa (also known as New Zealand), so it’s likely they currently live there.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#665

Post by hardware2win »

mythhouse wrote: post #635
maslam wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well written and kind response. Thank you for doing this. We could use a bit more of this on HN.

> The 'high' or 'dominant' castes make up more that more than 90% of Indian migrants as per a study in 2016. > The backward castes of South Asia, known as Dalits, form 1.5% of all Indian immigrants to the United States Calling me ignorant and a passive aggressive "forgive you" without actually addressing my comment isn't "kind". GP came here with a stem degree worth millions of dollars in lifetime earnings , NOT $30…

>GP came here with a stem degree worth millions of dollars

Degree helps you at the beginning of the career

After you have exp and knowledge

It becomes less and less relevant

It is impossible to predict value of degree

Just like the value of connections

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#666

Post by JamesianP »

csa wrote: post #601
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than…

> but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race No offense, but this is almost certainly a false narrative that you are telling yourself and your son. It’s not healthy. You summarized everything else outside of his grades and SAT scores as “strong extracurriculars”. Show me an impressive hook and a few rejections from elite schools, and I will agree that ther…

What can "strong extracurriculars" mean if not the things you described? I would expect significant things like sports (which wouldn't be "strong" if not at least varsity which isn't very special anyway, and some awards), and competitions with awards in other areas.

Though I do agree the odds are quite insane lately, with the top schools receiving applications from the top students of the entire planet. Basically everyone has to shift their sights down the rankings as a result.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#667

Post by mythhouse »

hardware2win wrote: post #665
mythhouse wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'high' or 'dominant' castes make up more that more than 90% of Indian migrants as per a study in 2016. > The backward castes of South Asia, known as Dalits, form 1.5% of all Indian immigrants to the United States Calling me ignorant and a passive aggressive "forgive you" without actually addressing my comment isn't "kind". GP came here with a stem degree worth millions of dollars in lifetime earnings , NOT $30…

>GP came here with a stem degree worth millions of dollars Degree helps you at the beginning of the career After you have exp and knowledge It becomes less and less relevant It is impossible to predict value of degree Just like the value of connections

> It is impossible to predict value of degree

Surely a stem degree and an opportunity to get a post graduate stem degree in a blazing hot tech market is worth more than $30.

Do you really think GP and a venezuelan asylee have same amount of privilege because they both came over with $30 in their pockets. Yet that was the logic GP used to justify his lack of privilege.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#668

Post by Akronymus »

helloworld11 wrote: post #604
Tozen wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic. The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women. White Women and Affir…

>That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The…

> It's a pernicious, grotesque notion that people with no personal or ancestral fault in a specific historical context should be punished for its existence as a compensation to others.

Yeah, affirmitive action kinda warped into something akin to the biblical original sin IMO.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#669

Post by [deleted] »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

[deleted]

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#670

Post by Akronymus »

Tozen wrote: post #608
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We agree on the big picture but not the details. Instead of race, why not look at economic position? I think the white family living in poverty in rural Appalachia is probably more deserving of AA than the middle-class Black family in Atlanta today. If there's a kid with a lower GPA/SAT than my son, but he's worked throughout HS, didn't have the same resources we have, he deserves acknowledgement and assistance. Coll…

I don't think you are seeing the historical context. Race is very much a part of it. America had to overcome slavery, redlining, Jim Crow, etc... These were based on race, not economic position. Affirmative action is an attempt to rectify the long standing American issues of discrimination based on race and other attributes (sex, color, etc...). Economic position or being at an economic disadvantage is a different ar…

From what I understood of your comment, a black person in a rich neighbourhood should get preferential treatment over a white person in a poor one? Because historically black people were mistreated?

What if white people are, in the future, treated as second class citizens, should AA then be for white ones?

IMO using racist policy to fight racism is just not going to end well.

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