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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#641

Post by sawyna »

mythhouse wrote: post #577
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Quoted post unavailable.

> What does it matter how much money was in your pockets.

Does it not matter? Can we step back and think this through? The op is most likely comparing himself to all the better placed individuals compared to him. Do people in America always think about third world countries and feel humble, modest and welcoming? Everyone's got their own struggles.

> You had the momentum generations of high caste privilege and high caste education focused culture in India that let you achieve that

Surely, you don't feel humble because centuries of evolution put humans at a disproportionate level compared to others.

The op may have got an advantage because of cultural and historical reasons, but is that a conscious decision on his part? I don't think people voluntarily supress lower castes on a day to day basis.

90% of high caste folks might have started the migration to US, but it's just been a couple of decades.

I also don't understand this dichotomy. If higher caste people are affluent and influential in Indian society, what could be the reason for them to move out and make bread in a different country?

Judging from op's hundreds of dollars, they were definitely not affluent. If you are not affluent, you can't be influential. If you are not influential, you have hustle your way through everything, literally everything.

I think this comment is harsh on the OP.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#642

Post by franga2000 »

briHass wrote: post #207
etempleton wrote: post #110

Part of the American dream is that the feeling that there is no rigid social class. Everyone is a millionaire down on their luck. You only need to work harder or be more clever—ideally both. To some extent, it is true. Realistically, however, it is rare to move more than one or two income brackets from where your parents were when they were your age. Race in America, however, is fraught. The history of racism is rece…

> Realistically, however, it is rare to move more than one or two income brackets from where your parents were when they were your age. You state that like it's a bad thing. If you can bump a bracket or two per generation, 2 generations can take you from near-penniless to upper-middle class.

We shouldn't even be talking in terms of generations. Bloodlines exist in biology, but we need to completely disregard them when talking about social issues. Working your ass off so you can send your children to a good school and they can then live a better life than you did should be considered a societal failure, not a success story of economic mobility.

True mobility is when you can work reasonable hours at your horrible warehouse job, enroll in a higher education programme and in 2-3 years, switch jobs to something that pays better. No need to rack up decades of student debt, no need to work crazy long hours or multiple jobs just to afford a place to live.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#643

Post by postsantum »

worik wrote: post #585
nradov wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since race is a social construct with no objective definition, your son can select whichever value he likes in the race field without legal penalty. Or just leave it blank.

> Since race is a social construct with no objective definition That does not mean it is not a thing.

If you suffer no consequences from lying then it's not a thing

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#644

Post by andrekandre »

steveBK123 wrote: post #169
Manuel_D wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you determine the race of a student? "Class" can be designated by objective measures like family income, whether or not parents are university graduates, etc. By comparison, how do you determine if an applicant is Black or Latin? Do you have them prove ancestry all the way back to Africa? Brazil is experiencing this issue [1]: > And that's when this story gets even more complicated. Because in order to "prove"…

Race is by definition self-reported, and is easily gamed, as recent high profile stories show. 1950s America everyone wanted to be white. 2020s America everyone wants to identify as something else. This should tell you how the incentives have inverted. Class is also easy to game and hard to define. And what is class - educational attainment, income, labor vs capital, all 3, 2 out of 3? How do you conclusively determi…

  > Is a plumber who didn't graduate high school but runs his own business making $90k in a LCOL area where homes cost $150k upper or lower class? What about a plumber working under someone else in a HCOL area making $120k but where homes cost $500k?
idk, these seem like things that can be reasonably calculated based on current statistics

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#645

Post by throw__2sdfw »

rayiner wrote: post #632
mythhouse wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologize for "high caste" assumption . you didn't address the crux of my comment. You came here with an education and momentum for success which is worth way more than whats in your pockets. Only a minuscule portion of Indian population has that privilege to get that education and immigrate to the states. Do you really belive you got into that tiny tiny population purely by your own hard work. Your comment portray…

What is the value of an Indian education? You overlook the stark difference between rich people in a poor country, and poor people in a rich country. My dad came here with an education, sure. But his village school in Bangladesh had no walls! He had to take a boat to school during monsoon season. That’s what qualified as elite back home at the time. Add in the fact that affirmative action isn’t about poor people. The…

Its not the value of Indian education, its about having the right in the first place. Education was plainly denied in the name of caste(religious entitlement) and only very few had access to education until recently. As a side effect of british colonilzation everyone had access to education. But still it took several decades after independence(1947) for some one to get college level education. Vast majority of indians are first person to go college.

Now the op has a kid who is about to enter college which means when he arrived to USA he was already had access to college level education although had little money. The

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#646

Post by ashwagary »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #595
mythhouse wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You don't know me, writing about high caste and whatnot. I remember having $30 in the bank, sleeping in my car in Detroit, and being awakened by gunshots near Wayne State Univ. The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days. I forgive you since you wrote out of ignorance.

>The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days.

Dont forget to be grateful to the black people affirmative action was originally intended to help. They are the only reason you were allowed into the US and could become naturalized. They spent their limited political capital fighting for you when they didnt need to.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#647

Post by spangry »

Tozen wrote: post #624
inglor_cz wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: According to you, an Indian teenager born in the 21st century should be treated as less desirable during a college admission process, because of things that some white people did to some black people in the 19th and 20th century. Sorry, this is textbook bigotry to me, and I am dismayed by the fact that this way of thinking infested the American academia and half of its political system. As a young guy in the 1…

> According to you, an Indian teenager born in the 21st century should be treated as less desirable during a college admission process, because of things that some white people did to some black people in the 19th and 20th century. Nowhere did I state that. You are putting words into my mouth and making up fake arguments. You are doing a classic straw man. Just stop, with that, and argue actual points that I made. Fo…

> Nowhere did I state that. You are putting words into my mouth and making up fake arguments. You are doing a classic straw man. Just stop, with that, and argue actual points that I made.

But that is exactly the result of your preferred policies. You don't just get to push for a policy and then walk away from the consequences claiming they have nothing to do with you.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#648

Post by inglor_cz »

Tozen wrote: post #624
inglor_cz wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TL;DR: According to you, an Indian teenager born in the 21st century should be treated as less desirable during a college admission process, because of things that some white people did to some black people in the 19th and 20th century. Sorry, this is textbook bigotry to me, and I am dismayed by the fact that this way of thinking infested the American academia and half of its political system. As a young guy in the 1…

> According to you, an Indian teenager born in the 21st century should be treated as less desirable during a college admission process, because of things that some white people did to some black people in the 19th and 20th century. Nowhere did I state that. You are putting words into my mouth and making up fake arguments. You are doing a classic straw man. Just stop, with that, and argue actual points that I made. Fo…

If you defend race-based affirmative action that lowers chances of Asian youth to get into certain spots - and this is what current affirmative action obviously does - you are fine with the larger picture, even without stating it explicitely.

You cannot disawow the consequences while supporting the mechanism that produced them. It is like saying "I hate reeducation camps and cultural revolutions but I support Maoism".

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#649

Post by JamesianP »

mythhouse wrote: post #631
worik wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us >I hate this Strong words. You do not know their struggles, or their stories (beyond one fact and one assumption). Better to use weak words, because you are in a weak position

Yes i can only go by what was written in the comment. > You do not know their struggles, or their stories By your logic no one can respond to anything because no one will know the commenters life story.

If no one ever responded to anything the way you did it would be an improvement.

I don't think Indian education is noticeably better than other developing countries anyway. Much less poor regions of the US. Especially India a generation ago.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#650

Post by andrekandre »

neycoda wrote: post #457

I've heard many lefties say this is just being class reductionist.

adolph reed has been accused of that as well...

good interview with him (and i'd say he explains things much better than the article imo)

https://daily.jstor.org/adolph-reed-jr-the-perils-of-race-re...

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