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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#591
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point being racial discrimination is acceptable so long as there is some plausible deniability

Is that point obvious? Perhaps the point is taking race completely out of the equation is going to descimatr Native American Latino and black attendance at Harvard. ~11% of white students will be be replaced by Asian students but the population will remain overwhelmingly white. I think the ~1300 Asian students that didn’t get into Harvard from 2010-2015 that scored above white students that were admitted really suffe…

> I think the ~1300 Asian students that didn’t get into Harvard from 2010-2015 that scored above white students that were admitted really suffered as a result of Harvards policies.

Grades and test scores are not the primary determination for admissions at elite schools. They say as much on their admissions web sites.

I have no idea why some people continue to believe and repeat that grades and tests scores are the key to elite school admissions. It’s much more than that.

Once the applicant has crossed a reasonably high threshold, all of the other stuff is what makes the difference between admit and reject.

Some folks may not like that elite school admissions are more than grades and test scores, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

Check out this article:

https://www.hispanicoutlook.com/articles/15-tips-minority-st...

#3, the hook, is what a lot of folks who complain about elite school admissions completely ignore.

Good recommendations are also important, and these are often not cultivated (and usually they need to be, either organically or structurally).

The applicants who feel like they were “victimized” based on their race were more likely victimized by their parents or guidance counselors for focusing their efforts on the wrong things during high school.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#592

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race.

The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic.

The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women.

White Women and Affirmative Action https://www.racismreview.com/blog/2014/03/11/white-women-aff...

White women benefit most from affirmative action https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-...

> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars...

That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India and were able to take advantage of the opportunity. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The original purpose of affirmative action, was to help those that were being actively and consistently discriminated against.

As a more recent immigrant, you are benefiting from laws and polices, which are the result of historical issues, court battles, and actual battles in America. Many Americans fought, died, and were jailed to get laws changed.

The context of why affirmative action was created, should not be skipped over, as if it applies simply to one person's situation and benefit. That you don't need something, is great for your situation, but that doesn't mean that's true for other ethnic groups and their situations.

"Affirmative action laws are policies instituted by the government to help level the playing field for those historically disadvantaged due to factors such as race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. These laws typically pertain to equal opportunities in employment, education, and business."

What is Affirmative Action and Why Was it Created? https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/what-is-affirmative-action...

> For my son, keeping everything else the same but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances...

That's gaming the system, for personal benefits, and contrary to the purposes for which affirmative action was created. That would be like a guy saying that if he writes down he's a different gender, he can now cheat his way into getting something he should not (by pretending to be female). If anything, you should arguably be against people falsifying documents or trying to present themselves as something they are not.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#593

One of the most pernicious consequences of this fixation on race is the definition of a person by an arbitrary social construct. Although they all check the same box, they have very different experiences and cultural backgrounds: * Black descendents of slaves vs African immigrants [1] * Chinese Americans vs Hmong Americans (a higher poverty rate than Black Americans! [2]) * A Korean who grew up in Koreatown LA vs one…

When I was in 11th grade, an Egyptian-American had a future scholarship rescinded because she was not African American.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if a man in this day of age would let a woman into his kitchen to make him a sandwich without a degree. One needs qualifications to show ability.

What? Given increased rates of male virginity, it's more as if a man in this day and age would deny a woman from entering the kitchen

While it was intended as a joke about the workplace, you raise an interesting perspective. Indeed, establishing bonds with a homemaker is increasingly considered a risky activity, particularly for men, primary due to the courts establishing precedent for ongoing support payments even after services are no longer rendered. Perhaps increased rates of male virginity really is the result of increased scrutiny?

Certainly in the workplace we've seen increased rates of job vacancies, yet employers will do everything in their power to try and avoid hiring you. This is especially apparent in tech (at least until recently) where companies couldn't hire fast enough, but also put the Leetcode screws to you to ensure that they couldn't find anyone to hire. This does suggest that we're becoming increasingly risk averse or that the stakes are higher.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#595

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Quoted post unavailable.

You don't know me, writing about high caste and whatnot. I remember having $30 in the bank, sleeping in my car in Detroit, and being awakened by gunshots near Wayne State Univ. The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days.

I forgive you since you wrote out of ignorance.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#596
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the goal of a nursing school to provide the best possible nurses to the healthcare industry? If we assume that: Whatever merit based metrics the school uses to determine admission are predictive of eventual performance and that men are admitted with lower performance on these metrics than some women Then removing the affirmative action should result in the school graduating nurses who perform better, right? Why…

The best individual components don't necessarily result in the best system. There may well be benefits to diversity that are not easily quantified at the individual level. The classic example of the development team that created a computer vision system that didn't work well at all with certain skin tones but they were unaware of this until feeling it live at a conference comes to mind. They didn't have anyone on the…

> There are numerous studies showing that diverse teams come up with better solutions.

There are also numerous studies that show diversity has either no effect or even negative effects on various measures of group performance - the academic literature on this issue is a total mixed bag. Here's how the OECD's [1] summary of the literature on diversity and firm performance:

> "Contrary to the often assumed, direct positive impact of diversity on business performance, research shows that at the firm level, the business case for diversity is not particularly strong. However, while the impact of diversity might be small, there is a strong economic argument against discrimination and non-inclusion based on the sizeable cost associated with it. Finally, the chapter notes ethical reasons for fostering a just and equitable labour market alongside the economic argument for diversity."

The literature also suggests the effects of diversity on group performance, whether positive, neutral or negative, are situation specific, depend on your measure of 'performance', and your definition of 'diversity'. Again, from the OECD:

> "A number of studies make a difference between ‘highly job-related diversity’, such as educational background, job position or function in the company, and diversity aspects that are ‘less job-related’, e.g. gender, ethnicity or age. Measurement of team performance includes multiple indicators, such as efficiency, creativity, innovation and productivity. Findings are somewhat mixed, but impacts of gender, ethnicity or age diversity are found to be either very small or insignificant. Some meta-analyses find no significant impact of gender composition, ethnicity or age on team performance (Horwitz and Horwitz, 2007[19]; Schneid et al., 2016[20]), while others find negative, but very small impacts (Bell et al., 2011[21]; Joshi and Roh, 2009[22])3. Most studies do, however, find a positive relationship between team performance and having teams with different professional backgrounds and other task-related characteristics (Bell et al., 2011[21]; Horwitz and Horwitz, 2007[23]; Joshi and Roh, 2009[22]). Overall, these findings from meta-analyses seem to suggest that team diversity in terms of gender, ethnicity or age do not matter much for team performance. However, there is some evidence that demonstrates the importance of situational settings by examining under what specific conditions diversity dynamics may unfold and how."

[1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/5f8c1531-en/index.html?i...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#597

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

If I were a college application reviewer, I would filter for helicopter parents in an attempt to find kids genuinely seeking education as opposed to parents pushing their kids to unhappy places.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#598
post #581

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society. I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, I…

I think what you describe is indeed a classist society and not a racist one. Maybe what you lack to see through it is the experience of a cultural milieu with different skin colors. I have studied, worked and am friend with a lot of people with North Africa origins, usually from wealthy families, that are now doctors, engineers, academics, … and clients mostly don’t care because we belong to the same class, what matters is how we dress, how we talk, and the countless other things that signal we are of the same class. Skin color is very a strong correlation with poverty, the latter being the true causality.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> I don't know, it's definitely some fairy thinking on behalf of the plaintiffs. Nothing will change. You'd have to be colossally fucking stupid, as an Asian kid, to think that these Republican motherfuckers are doing this for the benefit of Asians. They aren't doing it for the benefit of Asians. They aren;t doing it at all. The Supreme Court would be doing it to enforce laws against racism.

>The Supreme Court would be doing it to enforce laws against racism.

You missed GP's point

The Supreme court decides which cases it will hear.

It does not decide what cases should be filed in Federal courts that may or may not end up on their docket.

Whether or not GPs assertion is true (I don't know the facts of the case or the hearts/minds of those who brought it, so I make no judgement there) doesn't make their point moot, or your ignoring of their point less relevant.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#600
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let us say for a moment that Misogyny University wanted to discriminate on the basis of sex. However, it quickly found out that openly doing so is illegal. But they still hated women and wanted none of them. So, instead of saying that women automatically get rejected, they say that there are many factors that they consider and that sex is only one of them. However, of course when you look at the statistics the admiss…

> Now what exactly is the difference between what Harvard is doing and Misogyny University? Harvard admitted 27% or so Asians in this years class. They aren’t turning away any “strong admit” Asian applicants. The real decisions among the marginal candidates are who gets accepted and who gets waitlisted (iirc, that number is over 1000 at Harvard). Underrepresented groups get a slight edge in this area. Race is one pos…

https://wkoury.github.io/harvard-admissions/

There is a huge difference between the Admission rates for Asians Vs African Americans. In fact the admission rate for Asians is lower than Whites!

It does not matter that the current percentage is 27% when Harvard itself admitted that it would be 40% if not for AA. We should always consider admission rates for a particular student.

And finally I do not understand where this degree of faith in Harvard is coming from? This is the institution that systematically gave Asian significantly lower "personality scores" without even meeting them. Even while their own alumni rated Asians similar to their peers. Is this not an explicitly exclusionary policy?

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