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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#581

Post by worik »

For some of us (me included) living in a racist society is like a fish swiming who does not notice water. I only noticed when I became intimate with a person from a minority race and saw how they were treated. That is when I noticed I live in a racist society.

I love the economist. Their writing is so good, they are biased but know it, and acknowledge it. Biased, but not bigoted. nYet this article misses the point, IMO, or racial quotas in professional schools. They have the liberal individualistic bias, and have not noticed that one. It is their water (I am a liberal myself, but I have had that particular bias removed by my experiences.)

Here (Aotearoa) the point of quotas is not to allow some groups the same access to the privilege of the profession, but it is to help the consumers of professional services get what they need.

For doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants (yes) etcetera being from a similar community as your clients is very helpful for your clients. This is not a benefit to the individual professional, it is a benefit to the community.

There is a secondary benefit to the professions themselves. A cultural milieu helps bring new ideas forward.

Whether or not the system in the USA is fit for purpose or not, I do not know. But when deciding I hope the American judges think not, only, of benefit to the individuals but the wider effects on our communities.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#582

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #544
pmonks wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates. [edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I know he will get a fantastic education at most schools. But he truly is a special kid who gets inspired by super smart people and thrives on challenges, and will do better at Cal, Caltech, Harvey Mudd etc. We're not looking at non-STEM schools and Ivies -- I guess they don't want us and we don't want them.

Just one anecdote but, FWIW, I found that my peers at UBC were significantly smarter and harder-working than my peers at MIT.

Many schools have honours programs or especially challenging degree programs, which will be filled with excellent and ambitious students, even if that school is not an ivy league.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#583

Post by brewdad »

jessaustin wrote: post #402
MichaelCollins wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor kids get free or reduced cost lunches in all 50 states, thanks to the National School Lunch Program. The income threshold is adjusted annually to account for changes to the CPI. Tens of millions of kids participate in this program every year. California's innovation is giving free food to middle class kids then taking credit for feeding the poor kids.

There are lots of districts here in Missouri that have decided to make lunches (and breakfasts!) free for everyone in elementary and junior high school because the percentage of low-income families is high enough that that ends up being cheaper than wasting resources on means testing and collections. Regardless of how wealthy her parents are (or how difficult it is for her parents to fill out forms), you can't just n…

My district in Oregon does the same thing. Free lunch is offered to everyone with no means testing. The more well off kids still choose to bring their own lunches most days. Other days lunchroom trades are carried out between the school offerings and food from home but no child goes hungry and the program costs the same as when they had to pay people to deal with paperwork and bookkeeping.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#584

Post by worik »

mythhouse wrote: post #577
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Quoted post unavailable.

>> My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us

>I hate this

Strong words.

You do not know their struggles, or their stories (beyond one fact and one assumption). Better to use weak words, because you are in a weak position

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#585

Post by worik »

nradov wrote: post #496
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Since race is a social construct with no objective definition, your son can select whichever value he likes in the race field without legal penalty. Or just leave it blank.

> Since race is a social construct with no objective definition

That does not mean it is not a thing.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#586

Post by happyopossum »

kodah wrote: post #531
boppo1 wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you wind up a diversity hire?

Former military. I had been programming prior to being in the military, but after getting out nobody really wanted to hire me. My skills weren't really relevant any more, so I don't blame them. A couple firms ended up giving me a chance in the network and systems space.

Hiring veterans is completely different from hiring for racial diversity - being former military is a strong signal for many positive qualities that employers look for.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#587

Post by csa »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #547
purephase wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep throwing "plausible deniability" around, thinking that is what is happening here. You're assuming that the decision is someone selecting a candidate solely based on their race, when it is far far more nuanced than that. For Ivy's, the pool of candidates is so unbelievably large to available spots, that they look at hundreds of different data points when evaluating candidates, and they weight certain ones hig…

Let us say for a moment that Misogyny University wanted to discriminate on the basis of sex. However, it quickly found out that openly doing so is illegal. But they still hated women and wanted none of them. So, instead of saying that women automatically get rejected, they say that there are many factors that they consider and that sex is only one of them. However, of course when you look at the statistics the admiss…

> Now what exactly is the difference between what Harvard is doing and Misogyny University?

Harvard admitted 27% or so Asians in this years class.

They aren’t turning away any “strong admit” Asian applicants.

The real decisions among the marginal candidates are who gets accepted and who gets waitlisted (iirc, that number is over 1000 at Harvard).

Underrepresented groups get a slight edge in this area. Race is one possible criterion for underrepresentation, so is geography, so is economic status, so is expressed major, etc.

Comparing the current relatively low level of consideration given to race to the explicitly exclusionary policy 100 years ago is quite a stretch, imho.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#588

Post by RigelKentaurus »

csa wrote: post #569
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applica…

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race. And as a dad, I don't like it.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#589

Post by nobody9999 »

ikt wrote: post #508
Vecr wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose one argument is that men in general are stronger, and it's probably a good idea to have strong nurses around, especially with the current obesity rates. I'm absolutely making things up though, not sure if any studies on that kind of thing have been done recently.

True but if female nurses are having issues lifting patients that would then be an opportunity for private enterprise to invent machines/tools that assist with this

>an opportunity for private enterprise to invent machines/tools that assist with this

I think those machines/tools are called "orderlies."[0]

[0] https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/what-is-a...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#590

Post by worik »

etempleton wrote: post #110

Part of the American dream is that the feeling that there is no rigid social class. Everyone is a millionaire down on their luck. You only need to work harder or be more clever—ideally both. To some extent, it is true. Realistically, however, it is rare to move more than one or two income brackets from where your parents were when they were your age. Race in America, however, is fraught. The history of racism is rece…

> The history of racism [in the USA] is recent, overt, and systemic

I am not from the USA. But did racism not arrive, with the first white colonials, along with class? Why is racial prejudice more recent than class prejudice?

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