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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#531

Post by kodah »

boppo1 wrote: post #520
kodah wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I'm white, not a woman, and I've been (almost certainly) a diversity hire. In some ways, someone arbitrarily opening the door for you sheds a lot of load in the short-term. You still need all the grit that a chip on your shoulder gives you in order to succeed in the long run. When you do succeed you'll have to shed that load unless you want to sound like a bitter ass the res…

How did you wind up a diversity hire?

Former military. I had been programming prior to being in the military, but after getting out nobody really wanted to hire me. My skills weren't really relevant any more, so I don't blame them. A couple firms ended up giving me a chance in the network and systems space.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#532

Post by nonethewiser »

yieldcrv wrote: post #427
SamPatt wrote: post #414

I'm not really bothered by a handful of elite universities which are only attended by wealthy and connected people. Why is this a problem? Other schools exist which are accessible to people without wealth and connections. The colleges can let in whoever they want or don't want. We don't need all of them to be an accurate representation of society at large. Plenty of other institutions in society are also not represen…

case in point: Harvard has existed for nearly 400 years before having to deal with a couple decades of the general population thinking genpop needs Ivy League. Harvard will exist for another 400 years after genpop re-invents trade schools or the private sector finds another way to sort for employees. It's just literally not the school's problem. We've wasted many cycles and divided society by pretending like it is.

This is also way overstating it. Harvard's freshman class is around 1700. If you're a top 1700 high school student you have a great shot at getting into Harvard.

Only 300 people per year get a perfect 1600 on SAT's. If your scores are top 1700 that alone will be enough to get you noticed. It's not like there are 1700+ people in the 99th percentile.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#533

Post by qzw »

dasil003 wrote: post #338
qzw wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, certainly. A few years is all black kids and women need to overcome racial and gender prejudices in this country. Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now , and maybe, I don’t know, treat each one as an individual and judge them based on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin or the number of their X chromosomes?

This comment is a perfect microcosm of the title. Of course the issues you raise are real, and there is a whole constellation of systemic racism issues that specifically affect black people in a unique way. But when it comes to affirmative action there's a fundamental issue that goes beyond privilege narratives: > Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now, and maybe, I don’t know,…

> That's a nice sentiment, but it overlooks the fact that AA introduces this doubt, the doubt is in fact real, and can't be papered over with good intentions and turning a blind eye to cause and effect.

Hey, I'm well aware of the doubt. As an Asian male who went to an elite university, I had doubts about everybody. Black kids, Native Americans, Latinos, women... definitely AA, it goes without saying. The jocks of course got in on their ability to hit balls rather than books. And the private school lifers who've been groomed like show horses since kindergarten are merely highly polished legacy turds. But wait, I think that one white kid from Alaska only got in so the school can say they have students from all 50 states. And the guys from rural Ohio and Nebraska? You know they're the token farmers of the class. The kids whose parents were professors? Nepotism of the intelligentsia. Really, the only legitimate admits beyond suspicion were the other Asian males. Well, except the ones who were the first generation to go to college in their families. You know they got in on some sob story. And the fresh off the boat Asians? They barely speak English, so don't tell me they got 760 on the SAT verbal. Immigrants getting special treatment again. And forget all those Asians who only got in because their parents had an Ivy League fetish. They're just grinders with zero intellectual spark. Perfect for a life as some kind of joyless doctor, just as their parents always wanted.

All these elite schools should not only get rid of AA, but they should only accept Asian guys who have perfect grades and SAT test scores, hail from one of the major coastal cities, have parents who went to non-elite universities, are not athletes, play no instruments, attended public schools, are not first generation immigrants, have no bullshit "altruistic" extracurriculars, and have no disabilities. They would be the only ones who are truly academically qualified without any doubt.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#535

Post by nemothekid »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #356
duvenaud wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I believe there is belief that Harvard is accepting C-students over asians A+ students I think the reality is much closer; they are rejecting students with perfect scores and accepting students who scored in the 98th percentile. You don't need to speculate, the gap is more like 99th vs 93rd percentile: "Asian-Americans admitted to Harvard earned an average SAT score of 767 across all sections. ... African-Ame…

Point being racial discrimination is acceptable so long as there is some plausible deniability

>Point being racial discrimination is acceptable so long as there is some plausible deniability

I don't think my point was clear, Harvard, or most other elite institutions, has never implied to some meritocratic institution where acceptance is based solely on test scores. If that were true, there are ~22,000 applicants with perfect scores; Harvard wouldn't struggle having an incoming class of perfect SAT students.

If Harvard is forced to be "race blind", I highly doubt they would just switch to a completely objective ranking; there's no reason for them to, again, they have never been a meritocratic institution. They will find other subjective hairs to split, such as making interviews count higher or further combing through essays. Given the history of the institution (and some of the more notable graduates it produces), it's not even a given that the school becoming race blind would necessarily benefit asians.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#536

Post by BeefWellington »

nonethewiser wrote: post #514
quantified wrote: post #49

> Nothing the Supreme Court says about the consideration of race in college admissions will affect the more basic problem, that too few Americans from poorer families are sufficiently prepared to apply to college. About sums it up. Though if there are any visible disparities in the populations that produce poor children who are prepared, I expect a loud argument.

Meanwhile, president of 50k/year liberal arts college says student debt "gets a bad wrap" and warns that alternatives include colleges having to "eat the cost" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/debt-gets-a-bad-rap-as-a-c...

What's interesting to me is that people like that seem to pretend as though other places on earth and other models don't exist.

Running schools for profit is questionable on its own and I think it's tolerated because historically University/College education was seen as optional. We've moved away from that in a lot of the sectors that drive the economy these days though and the system hasn't been tweaked (regulated I suppose) appropriately.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#537

Post by [deleted] »

yucky wrote: post #456
etchalon wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion that the reason certain groups of people aren't taken seriously in certain roles is because of "D&I" or "AA" is flatly ahistorical. Certain people just refuse to accept certain groups of people are capable of accomplishment without outside help or uniquely uncommon circumstances. But every generation finds some excuse that their prejudices are "rational".

Certain people just refuse to accept certain groups of people are capable of accomplishment without outside help or uniquely uncommon circumstances. Sounds like the solution then is to remove that outside help, and thus all doubt. Right?

[deleted]

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#538

Post by selestify »

randomdata wrote: post #510
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like the argument that women don’t need degrees because they are just housewives or secretaries

As if a man in this day of age would let a woman into his kitchen to make him a sandwich without a degree. One needs qualifications to show ability.

What? Given increased rates of male virginity, it's more as if a man in this day and age would deny a woman from entering the kitchen

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#539

Post by pmonks »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates.

[edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#540

Post by nonethewiser »

BeefWellington wrote: post #536
nonethewiser wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, president of 50k/year liberal arts college says student debt "gets a bad wrap" and warns that alternatives include colleges having to "eat the cost" https://www.marketwatch.com/story/debt-gets-a-bad-rap-as-a-c...

What's interesting to me is that people like that seem to pretend as though other places on earth and other models don't exist. Running schools for profit is questionable on its own and I think it's tolerated because historically University/College education was seen as optional. We've moved away from that in a lot of the sectors that drive the economy these days though and the system hasn't been tweaked (regulated I…

It's also straw-manning the very obviously fair observation that college is crazy expensive in the US. He also said that it's good "to have skin in the game" and that debt affords the opportunity to receive a quality education. Yeah, it is good to have skin in the game. No one disagrees with that. The criticism is that it costs 50k/year and you leave with a liberal arts skillset (IE, not uniquely qualified for anything). I'm not even saying liberal arts is bad, but at 50k a year it should have a direct path to a direct, obvious path to a high paying job. It doesnt.

Instead we get platitudes that leave the very obvious problem of rapidly rising tuition unaddressed. Honestly people need to just stop taking out debt for things like that. You mention needing a degree for everything. In some sense you do, because people ask for it, but I don't think you need it. It's just oversaturated.

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