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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point being racial discrimination is acceptable so long as there is some plausible deniability

Can we just stop with these bullshit word games? I'm so tired. Describing a form of legal discrimination (in this case, affirmative action) as "racial discrimination" is not an argument. Or even an invitation to discussion. There are major problems with policies like affirmative action. But smirking and saying "But... but you said racial discrimination is BAD! But then you DO THE RACIAL DISCRIMINATION. So YOU BAD!" i…

But it is racial discrimination, and the people you're arguing with think it's bad...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people generally care about the public interest because of their shared humanity. People generally identify with their society and want to see it prosper. They should also care that their society remains well structured because it increases the probability that their own situation improves over the course of their life, and that their children/grandkids will be wealthy. They gain nothing from believing in the…

They should also care that their society remains well structured because it increases the probability that their own situation improves over the course of their life, and that their children/grandkids will be wealthy. Are you calling USA "well structured"? Socialist European nations have much more income mobility than USA has. Few are threatened with penury, most employers pay a living wage, and many more people who…

Whether the US is well structured can be debated, but my point is only that even a well structured society can have poverty that cannot be eradicated in a generation.

Consider the US in 1870: per capita GDP was $3,000, so even with a totally noncorrupt and absolutely competent government, and perfect wealth inequality, the entire population would be in poverty by today's standards. Income growth takes time.

As to your point: wages in Europe are lower than in the US, and there is much less funding available for startups.

Europe is also not appreciably more socialist than the US:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_...

Almost all of the advanced economies became dramatically more socialist over the last 60 years, the US included:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point being racial discrimination is acceptable so long as there is some plausible deniability

Can we just stop with these bullshit word games? I'm so tired. Describing a form of legal discrimination (in this case, affirmative action) as "racial discrimination" is not an argument. Or even an invitation to discussion. There are major problems with policies like affirmative action. But smirking and saying "But... but you said racial discrimination is BAD! But then you DO THE RACIAL DISCRIMINATION. So YOU BAD!" i…

You are missing my point entirely. In many of the oral arguments for this case the Harvard lawyers insisted that race based affirmative action is ok because race is a factor among many.

Implying that if it was the only factor then it would not be ok. So theirs is not a principled defense of affirmative action but rather based entirely on plausible deniability

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a STEM academic, I can say that I've never seen or heard of ongoing AA for men in any STEM program in any institution whose policies I'm acquainted with. So it seems to me to be misleading to claim, or at least hard to believe, that very many men in college have been beneficiaries of AA for men.

Not in STEM departments, no. Why would you run a pro-male affirmative action programme in a department where men were already over-represented? But there's affirmative action for men in nursing, teaching, social studies, and similar female-dominated departments. There are active campaigns to recruit more male nurses - and male teachers are more likely to be promoted. I also know first-hand that vocational ballet scho…

Isn't the goal of a nursing school to provide the best possible nurses to the healthcare industry?

If we assume that:

Whatever merit based metrics the school uses to determine admission are predictive of eventual performance

and that men are admitted with lower performance on these metrics than some women

Then removing the affirmative action should result in the school graduating nurses who perform better, right? Why wouldn't we want that?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#435

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

And, it'll be awesome. In the short term, the few black kids and women who end up in engineering will get respect for making it into the program. And, hopefully a few years later, they'll no longer be looked at as diversity hires.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I'm white, not a woman, and I've been (almost certainly) a diversity hire.

In some ways, someone arbitrarily opening the door for you sheds a lot of load in the short-term. You still need all the grit that a chip on your shoulder gives you in order to succeed in the long run. When you do succeed you'll have to shed that load unless you want to sound like a bitter ass the rest of your life. My point here is, I didn't really need anyone to tell me that I was looked down on (by certain people) for a period of time to know it, and I'm not sure college admissions or jobs that are attracting diversity hires are attracting people who give a shit what you think in the short term.

Your opinion of me will be established long after the initial thought of, "Oh this guy is a diversity hire" has left the space between your ears.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#436

One of the most pernicious consequences of this fixation on race is the definition of a person by an arbitrary social construct. Although they all check the same box, they have very different experiences and cultural backgrounds: * Black descendents of slaves vs African immigrants [1] * Chinese Americans vs Hmong Americans (a higher poverty rate than Black Americans! [2]) * A Korean who grew up in Koreatown LA vs one…

Different waves of immigration also makes a huge difference. I’m part of the wave of people from the subcontinent who came here from 1970-1995, largely before H1B was created. Most Indians I knew growing up were doctors or business owners who moved to southern states. Like most Asians until 2000, they voted Republican. Indians who came to Silicon Valley or NYC after 2000, by contrast, are a very different group who assimilated into a different domestic culture and had a different experience.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#437
Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged.

I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year.

My 17-year old is applying to universities to study CS for fall 2023. We live in a highly competitive school district. He's hardworking and studious, as reflected in his 4.0 GPA and perfect 1600 SAT score (thankfully, some schools like MIT have brought back the SAT.) He has always taken the hardest possible AP and college-level classes and has strong extracurriculars. In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses.

Our school counselor and other parents we've have spoken with have flat-out advised us to: Apply to more lower-tier schools. Amongst the elites, target "hard STEM" schools like MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, where he’s more likely to get a fair shot (Asians are 40+% of the incoming class at these places.) Forget the Ivies — the last thing they want is “another smart Indian male” (the counselor's words, not mine.) You see, that won’t help with “diversity.”

Also — we use a system called Collegevine to keep track of applications. Applicants can input their GPA, SAT scores, extracurriculars etc. to understand their acceptance rate at specific universities based on historical data. For my son, keeping everything else the same but simply changing his race from Asian to Black/Hispanic increases his chances of getting in at the above elite schools from 4-8% to 60+%. I am not making this up — you can test this yourself.

Is it fair to penalize my son for working hard and being an excellent student?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#438
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, certainly. A few years is all black kids and women need to overcome racial and gender prejudices in this country. Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now , and maybe, I don’t know, treat each one as an individual and judge them based on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin or the number of their X chromosomes?

This comment is a perfect microcosm of the title. Of course the issues you raise are real, and there is a whole constellation of systemic racism issues that specifically affect black people in a unique way. But when it comes to affirmative action there's a fundamental issue that goes beyond privilege narratives: > Or how about we don’t assume all black kids and women are diversity hires now, and maybe, I don’t know,…

> AA introduces this doubt

Maybe. Every once in a while we have someone I consider an AA-only hire, but they don't stick around. OK, I'll be honest, the most recent one I was wrong - even though they lacked experience, they were clearly better than the (white male) person they replaced... and they're still here so I'm happy.

I'm going to imagine a world without "AA hires". I think people still get judged based on their skin color. That's the way rascism works.

So, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Anyway, when an incompetent colleague sticks around for years... I wish I could blame affirmative action and feel good, but nope - instead I'm going to blame management.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#439
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say I respect anyone for getting into an engineering program. It's sticking through to graduate that matters

Research shows that graduation rates for minorities in engineering programs will likely increase if affirmative action goes away: > Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites. [1] 1: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-pai...

Actually, there may be even higher graduation rates among URM students in STEM fields - this is the claim of some recent research [1]. URM students have lower persistence rates[2] in STEM fields at most universities. Some claim this is due to racism, but the data shows that the persistence rates is actually the same for all races when normalized for academic preparedness. A student with 700s on their SATs is just as likely to persist regardless of white, Asian, Black, etc. Students with 600s and 500s are less likely, again regardless of race. It's just that there's a lot more URM students attending with lower scores.

The expected consequence of eliminating race-based affirmative action is that URM students will instead attend less selective universities where they're more likely to persist. Sure, the university they graduate from may not be as prestigious. But on the flipside, they'll be more likely to graduate in the field they actually wanted to study. They'll also probably save a lot of money, since changing majors partway through usually means that these students take 5 or 6 years to graduate.

1. https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w14885/w148...

2. "Persistence rate" means the rate at which students complete their declared major. It's rare for students to drop out of university entirely, much more common is that they change to a less demanding major - that is, they don't persist in their initial major.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For technology focused universities, women usually have higher admission rates than men: https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give...

Because there are many programs deliberately designed to benefit women - as in, their public stated goal as well as taking direct (as opposed to indirect, i.e requiring height or strength) steps to limit their benefits to women. The same is true of many minorities.

if women are a minority doesnt that make a mockery of the term?
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