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When Truth Survives Free Speech

nytimes.com

31–40 of 53 posts

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#31
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court is interested in cases that are brought to them. It's hard for anyone to have standing in suing the NYT for not doing enough due diligence leading up to the war(s).

Point granted, though it is also true that financial investors are interested in bringing cases. I'm still left with a bad taste in my mouth; maybe it's a gut reaction to side with the weaker party. Or perhaps I'm just being contrarian.

Nothing wrong with being contrarian, but this is just a cheap rhetorical tactic that turns a legitimate, specific debate into less useful clashing of egos and worldviews.

How is: "Well, look how the New York Times editorial board in 2003 incited the entire country into war"

...a legit rebuttal to: "A 2011 columnist for the New York Times points out that a blogger was primarily engaged in defamatory speech and so shouldn't be given the legal protections afforded to journalists." ?

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#32
post #6

Carr ends with: >> Then again, I’ve got some institutional muscle when it comes to how I’m perceived on the Web. All Mr. Padrick had was his good reputation. Too bad there’s no algorithm to measure truth. I know he's a writer and needs to end with a real zinger, but it's a cheap shot against algorithms and their role in helping us make correct assessments. 1. There are algorithms which can gauge truth and accuracy. T…

Are there really algorithms for judging the truth? I think the closest we can get is heuristics for identifying whether or not something is being actively deceptive, but it's a big epistemological leap to say that we can definitely determine truth in an algorithmic way. Google is very good in these situations, but Google has a hard time differentiating between a popular movement and a single determined astroturfer. I…

Sure, if the thing to be judged has a limited number of inputs and factors and outcomes...which is something that does not apply to the content of the Web, of course.

But in other cases where the answer is basically, "yes" or "no"...if an algorithm chooses the right answer, doesn't that count as truth? Take for example, the Apgar score, which consists of giving a newborn a score of 0 to 2 for five categories: complexion, pulse rate, reflex, muscle tone, and breathing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apgar_score

A baby that scores 8 is considered to be doing well. A baby with just 5 merits additional examination.

This simple numerical score is credited with revolutionizing obstetric medicine and is still used today, even though it was first published in 1953. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/10/09/061009fa_fact?cu...

I guess it's debatable whether this counts as an "algorithm"...but it involves the mechanical evaluation of a "score", with set guidelines for when such score is dangerously low. The fact that the scoring is done through human judgment is peripheral to the matter...it's not hard to imagine a machine being able to perform the same test (perhaps more accurately) were it cost-practical to build such a machine.

One more interesting note: The Apgar score was not developed by an expert. It was developed by a female doctor who had never delivered a baby (nor had a baby) herself, but felt that doctors were giving up too quickly on sick babies.

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#33
I honestly do not understand this constant back-and-forth about credibility and validity between "real journalists" and "bloggers". It's as if "real journalists" are some kind of supernatural entity that descend from the universe of Platonic truths to dispense objective information which we can internalize and process without further judgment.

Journalists and bloggers share a fatal flaw: They're human. Someone signs their paychecks. They have goals, dreams, and motives. Who cares whether they're a "journalist" or not? What difference does it make?

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really algorithms for judging the truth? I think the closest we can get is heuristics for identifying whether or not something is being actively deceptive, but it's a big epistemological leap to say that we can definitely determine truth in an algorithmic way. Google is very good in these situations, but Google has a hard time differentiating between a popular movement and a single determined astroturfer. I…

Sure, if the thing to be judged has a limited number of inputs and factors and outcomes...which is something that does not apply to the content of the Web, of course. But in other cases where the answer is basically, "yes" or "no"...if an algorithm chooses the right answer, doesn't that count as truth? Take for example, the Apgar score, which consists of giving a newborn a score of 0 to 2 for five categories: complex…

Yeah, that's more of a heuristic for determining the health of an infant. An algorithmic approach would give you a definite yes-or-no for all baby inputs.

And the analogy breaks down here because the online ecosystem adapts very fast. It would work if there was some sort of gene that led to premature births plus high Apgar scores (the equivalent of a malicious website that ranks well).

That's why search is so tough: search engines and gaming have coevolved to the point that in plenty of areas, search quality would go down if people weren't trying to game the algorithm.

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#36
post #25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

she's not a journalist. really. the judge decided this based on the lack of "(1) any education in journalism; (2) any credentials or proof of any affiliation with any recognized news entity; (3) proof of adherence to journalistic standards such as editing, fact-checking, or disclosures of conflicts of interest; (4) keeping notes of conversations and interviews conducted; (5) mutual understanding or agreement of confi…

Legitimate? Unless it's in a text of law, it's not legitimate. I could argue that he's not a judge the same way.

Very very incorrect. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_law and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law , which have the force of law but are neither statutory nor regulatory law (which I assume is what you mean by “a text of law”; arguably case law, since it is in the form of written decisions, actually is “a text of law” anyway).

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#37
post #27
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 and 7 disqualify many fair and balanced "journalism" organizations as well. Accept that the judge was BSing and this part of the decision makes much more sense.

You don't need to be all those things, just some.

(1) any education in journalism; (2) any credentials or proof of any affiliation with any recognized news entity; (3) proof of adherence to journalistic standards such as editing, fact-checking, or disclosures of conflicts of interest; (4) keeping notes of conversations and interviews conducted; (5) mutual understanding or agreement of confidentiality between the defendant and his/her sources; (6) creation of an independent product rather than assembling writings and postings of others; (7) contacting 'the other side' to get both sides of a story.

I don't buy any of these at all.

#1 and #2 say that you need a piece of paper to be a journalist. It's not true, as you can see from independent bloggers in eg Arab states covering the various revolutions.

#3 through 5 says that you need to have "standards" to be a journalist. Again there is no one to bell the cat. If your rush expose has numerous misspellings, do you lose your status? How closely must you check your facts? How much conflict of interest must you disclose? "Disclosure: the author loves Apple products." Similarly for keeping notes and being up front with your sources. If you don't do it we might call what you're doing "bad journalism". But it's not "not journalism".

#6 says that aggregators are not journalists. To a degree I think this is true; see below.

#7 says that unless you provide fair views or equal time, you're not a journalist. I put this together with #3 to #5.

As a thought exercise, see which of your favorite journalism organizations pass the filter on any given day.

Now that that's out of the way, what is journalism? It's broadcasting an eyewitness account, or original ideas derived from an eyewitness account, to the public. And that's it. This is why I might exclude aggregators who don't add independent content.

Freedom of the press means freedom to publish and be read without censorship. We are all publishing all the time. This doesn't mean that we need to somehow narrow the field of journalism to exclude the unwashed masses, as this judge's opinion strains to do. We might need to specify the definition of "journalistic activity" if we need to carve out special protections.

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#38
This may sound a bit radical, but I'm not even sure I want the government stepping in and doing anything about libel. It's already true that you can't trust everything you read, and this includes articles from "official" journalism institutions. It does hurt to have your reputation damaged, though. That's a tradeoff that is a bit disconcerting, but may be worth it in order to have a more strict, black-and-white definition of what the government can and cannot censor. The more things that the government is legally able to censor, the more subjective freedom of speech becomes, and the more it gets in danger.

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#39
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if the thing to be judged has a limited number of inputs and factors and outcomes...which is something that does not apply to the content of the Web, of course. But in other cases where the answer is basically, "yes" or "no"...if an algorithm chooses the right answer, doesn't that count as truth? Take for example, the Apgar score, which consists of giving a newborn a score of 0 to 2 for five categories: complex…

Yeah, that's more of a heuristic for determining the health of an infant. An algorithmic approach would give you a definite yes-or-no for all baby inputs. And the analogy breaks down here because the online ecosystem adapts very fast. It would work if there was some sort of gene that led to premature births plus high Apgar scores (the equivalent of a malicious website that ranks well). That's why search is so tough:…

Heuristics are algorithms and algorithms don't have to give definite answers.

Re: When Truth Survives Free Speech

#40
post #37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to be all those things, just some.

(1) any education in journalism; (2) any credentials or proof of any affiliation with any recognized news entity; (3) proof of adherence to journalistic standards such as editing, fact-checking, or disclosures of conflicts of interest; (4) keeping notes of conversations and interviews conducted; (5) mutual understanding or agreement of confidentiality between the defendant and his/her sources; (6) creation of an inde…

> #1 and #2 say that you need a piece of paper to be a journalist.

no, they say that if you have a piece of paper, you could be a journalist. if you have no paper, but meet other criteria, you could be a journalist.

> #3 through 5 says that you need to have "standards" to be a journalist

yup

> Again there is no one to bell the cat

judges bell cats. that's the whole point of the judicial system. i'm going to show you how a reasonable judge (hey, reasonable person) would apply this standard:

> If your rush expose has numerous misspellings, do you lose your status?

nope. that's nowhere in the standard.

> How closely must you check your facts?

depends on the facts. something controversial? probably pretty closely. something obvious? probably not all that close. the important thing is that this is something that you as an organization do. cox didn't do any at all. great, doesn't meet this standard.

> How much conflict of interest must you disclose? "Disclosure: the author loves Apple products."

that's not a conflict of interest.

> Similarly for keeping notes and being up front with your sources.

seriously? you're okay with people who don't keep notes and lie to their sources "journalists"? the issue is not whether you didn't keep notes that one time. cox never did. she's not a journalist.

> #7 says that unless you provide fair views or equal time

nope. it just says you have to contact the opposing party for their perspective. you don't have to devote half your article to them. you'll notice that fox news has democrats on for their pundits to yell at. of course, cox never contacted the plaintiff for his opinion.

> what is journalism? It's broadcasting an eyewitness account, or original ideas derived from an eyewitness account, to the public

no. that's tweeting. if you think people anybody who writes anything about the real world special protections not afforded to the rest of the population, you're insane. the issue at hand is whether or not certain people get special protections (particularly from subpoenas). look, if you tweet about a murder that you heard about from someone, the DA can subpoena you for your source and your testimony. if you tweet about it, that doesn't make you a journalist immune from divulging your sources.

> Freedom of the press means freedom to publish and be read without censorship.

yup. there's no first amendment issue here! cox made defamatory statements; those are not neither covered under shield laws nor the first amendment!

> doesn't mean that we need to somehow narrow the field of journalism to exclude the unwashed masses

publishing and journalism are not the same! we provide journalists with special protections because they provide us (the public) with something valuable (journalism). we pass laws giving them special treatment (we're not allowed to subpoena their sources), and as such, we should definitely expect certain standards from them. i don't think the bar for journalism should be super high, but that doesn't not make everyone a journalist.

> We might need to specify the definition of "journalistic activity" if we need to carve out special protections.

that's the whole point. shield laws apply only to journalists. that's the question at hand.

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