American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class • Hacker News Board

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#391

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

nickstinemates wrote: post #382

scarface74 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in the top 10% of income percentile. But I still got looked at suspiciously as a Black person living in a county that’s 3% Black and as recently as the late 80s was a famous “Sundown town” ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eYKQdPMeJjk ) I once took my team to lunch and the waitress asked would we be on one check or separate, I spoke up and said one, started reaching for my wallet and she still handed the check to t…

> if I walk into a convenience store with a visible gun in an open carry state and a “lower class” White person does the same and a policemen happens to be in the store, who do you think will be harassed? Presumably neither of you since in this straw-man neither party has done anything wrong

So you think a Black guy has to “do something wrong” to be considered “acting suspiciously”?

Just like Ving Rhames, was “suspiciously” living in his own house when SWAT knocked on his door because someone thought he had broken into his own house.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/actor-ving-rhames-said-...

This isn’t just a random anecdote

https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/bl...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#392

Post by civilized » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

gnicholas wrote: post #384

okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

The Supreme Court is not deciding anything with regard to sex-based discrimination right now. I would be surprised if it even mentioned anything in dicta (non-binding comments not necessary to the holding) about this topic. Also, if/when the question comes up, there is a different standard for sex-based discrimination than race-based. The former is subject to intermediate scrutiny, whereas the latter is subject (in g…

It seems ridiculous for it to turn out that way. Let's make sure we have enough men in college, but it's wrong to increase the Black representation?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#393

Post by crackercrews » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

8note wrote: post #315

givemeethekeys wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, it'll be awesome. In the short term, the few black kids and women who end up in engineering will get respect for making it into the program. And, hopefully a few years later, they'll no longer be looked at as diversity hires.

I can't say I respect anyone for getting into an engineering program. It's sticking through to graduate that matters

Research shows that graduation rates for minorities in engineering programs will likely increase if affirmative action goes away:

> Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites. [1]

1: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-pai...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#394

Post by mcguire » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:20 AM UTC

Test0129 wrote: post #228

TimTheTinker wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White privilege" is like a DSM-5 diagnosis. It's only brought up with a treatment (or remedy) in mind. It's intended more as a tool to bring about a particular outcome, and less as a description of a scientifically measurable reality. I don't object to the use of "white privilege" to attempt an objective description of reality. I do object to the notion that more discrimination on the basis of race is the answer. Yo…

I object to the use of "white privilege" on first principles: Interpreted literally, it implies all whites are privileged. This is categorically untrue. It encourages racism through associating an immutable trait with a negative word. "White privilege" is no more true than saying "Jewish privilege" or "Asian privilege" when referring to trends that do not reflect the whole. For the latter two one would be accused of…

"Consequently, there are more very disenfranchised whites who are probably experiencing the same, if not worse, conditions as others races."

I grew up white and lower middle class, but I've never been worried about being arrested hanging around my own house (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates_arrest_contr..., https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/0..., https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/09/17/wisconsin-bla...) or helping one of my neighbors (https://www.npr.org/2022/09/10/1121857070/black-pastor-water...) or taking out my trash (https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/video/body-camera-footage-re...) or going to a coffee shop (https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/14/17238494/what-happe...) or going to a bank (https://www.gq.com/story/ryan-coogler-bank-of-america-handcu..., https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/black-man-c..., https://kstp.com/kstp-news/top-news/banking-while-black-poli...) or even by police chasing someone completely different (https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/04/us/massachusetts-wrong-suspec...).

Fortunately, I don't jog (https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/02/us/san-antonio-black-jogger-c...), but I do like to eat out (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-apologize-after-...) and I might get sick (https://www.wbur.org/news/2021/10/12/boston-police-arrest-po..., https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/va-resigns-taser-pepp...). I've only been pulled over without cause once (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us/racial-disparity-traff..., https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profi...).

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#395

Post by michaelt » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:23 AM UTC

duvenaud wrote: post #288

okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

As a STEM academic, I can say that I've never seen or heard of ongoing AA for men in any STEM program in any institution whose policies I'm acquainted with. So it seems to me to be misleading to claim, or at least hard to believe, that very many men in college have been beneficiaries of AA for men.

Not in STEM departments, no. Why would you run a pro-male affirmative action programme in a department where men were already over-represented?

But there's affirmative action for men in nursing, teaching, social studies, and similar female-dominated departments. There are active campaigns to recruit more male nurses - and male teachers are more likely to be promoted.

I also know first-hand that vocational ballet schools recruit equal numbers of boys and girls, so they can teach partnering - despite the fact they probably get 30 female applicants for every male applicant!

Of course, a male might find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action is only applied in areas like ballet and nursing which they're not interested in - but that's the whole point of affirmative action.

And if you find it unfair that the pro-male affirmative action for female-dominated jobs only provides low-paid, low-status jobs - then feminists are very much in agreement with you about the unfairness of the situation :)

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#396

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:23 AM UTC

ameister14 wrote: post #337

gausswho wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the DA said on the subject: "Two days after being sworn in, Alvin Bragg shared a memo with staff Monday noting that his office will not prosecute low-level offenses like marijuana misdemeanors, refusal to pay for public transportation fare, prostitution and resisting arrest, unless given alongside a felony charge. Instead, they would be offered a community-based diversion program." Does that sound unreasonable?…

While I completely agree about bail reform, I think you may have a misconception about prison populations (people actually convicted.) Of the roughly 1 million people incarcerated in state prisons, over 60% are there for violent crimes. About 3.8% are in prison for drug possession - about 40,000. So yes, too many, but not 1 in 150. Now, 1 in 5 people are in jail for some kind of drug offense, but that's not simple po…

Yes, anyone who has walked around NYC in the last 10 years and thinks that theres some sort of mass incarceration of marijuana users is delusional. The smell is basically on any block on any given day, and theres open selling of it from unlicensed mobile dispensaries.

Pretending the jails are filled with non-violent simple drug offenders is someone either ill informed or not wanting to have a serious conversation. Either way, they are probably not in a position to be harmed one way or the other by increased criminal violence because they are high status enough to believe their zip code or income insulate them from it.

Further, to your stat of 60% of incarcerated being their for violent offenses probably undersells how many were "violent". The NY bail reform laws were passed by pols who said it only applied to "non violent" offenses.

However the criminal law definition & intuitive civilian understanding of "non violent" do not necessarily align. There were plenty of cases in NYC post 2019 of people getting pushed down the stairs of subways, or sucker punched on the sidewalk which somehow fell into the "non-violent" bucket, for the purposes of the law.

The whole argument on bail reform would be moot if suspects were getting a speedy trial. We shouldn't be hearing of cases where people are out on the streets able to commit 5 different offenses over 9 months while still awaiting trial on the first charges.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#397

Post by wrp » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:24 AM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #278

okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

And, it'll be awesome. In the short term, the few black kids and women who end up in engineering will get respect for making it into the program. And, hopefully a few years later, they'll no longer be looked at as diversity hires.

I can illustrate one way that "diversity" hiring has affected perceptions of a demographic. In the 1980s, I worked around engineering departments a lot. Women were rare, but it seemed to be widely assumed that any woman in engineering would be exceptionally capable and driven.

These days, when I hear discussion about inclusive hiring, regardless of whether people are for or against it, there is a common assumption that allowances will have to be made for employees of lesser ability.

My impression is that this change in attitude started in the mid-1990s.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#398

Post by nullifidian » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:24 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #323

givemeethekeys wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, affirmative action mandates diversity hires. I don't think affirmative action affects "sleeping their way to the top".

> Well, affirmative action mandates diversity hires. No, it doesn’t.

Disparate impact jurisprudence does https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-dead...

"Despite this assertion, the development of the Griggs doctrine has proved anything but friendly to meritocratic objectives. Although the Supreme Court has never held that all workplaces must be racially balanced, lower courts and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), which is charged with administering Title VII, have firmly embraced the presumption that the racial profiles of particular workplaces should reflect the racial composition of the broader population."

"Recently, prompted by the racially adverse impact of measures of verbal and abstract analysis — areas in which some minority groups underperform — experts have also developed alternative instruments that employ audio or video techniques, or that make use of so-called "assessment center" protocols based on job simulations, real-time problem solving, or actual work samples."

"Although few disparate-impact lawsuits are actually filed, and though defendants win most of those that are, the specter of disparate-impact lawsuits nonetheless dangles like a Sword of Damocles over employers' heads. The prospect of onerous, unpredictable, and protracted litigation provides employers with a strong incentive to find some way to avoid being sued. One temptation is to satisfy diversity targets by relaxing personnel-selection standards across the board. Firms can also switch to more haphazard staffing methods that tend to obscure informal affirmative action or other race-conscious practices. Some of these tactics pose the risk of yielding a less effective work force, while others (such as the use of race-based criteria) are legally suspect or even expressly forbidden under Title VII."

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#399

Post by stubish » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

strken wrote: post #322

okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

When I was 18 I filled out the section of the form for rural applicants (in the Australian university system), but with the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd left it blank. I'm 95% sure that I would have made it anyway yet the 5% doubt is unpleasant.

There are many, many disadvantages to being educated in rural Australia vs. in the capital cities. Even if you got selected by one of the richer schools who pay for the best teachers and better student/teacher ratios, you are still disadvantages by needing to live away from home (lacking family support) or 4 hours of commuting each day. And it isn't even all about you. Because Universities know about these disadvantages, they know that, on average, a student from a rural area will perform better than an urban student with the same scores. It adds context to the scores.

Unlike, say, when there was a box to tick if you had enough aboriginal blood in your veins. So many people ticked that box for an unfair advantage, completely disconnected and even scornful of the culture but able to claim enough percentage of the race. But lots of students took the money from Abstudy even if it muddied their ethics.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#400

Post by gnicholas » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

civilized wrote: post #392

gnicholas wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Supreme Court is not deciding anything with regard to sex-based discrimination right now. I would be surprised if it even mentioned anything in dicta (non-binding comments not necessary to the holding) about this topic. Also, if/when the question comes up, there is a different standard for sex-based discrimination than race-based. The former is subject to intermediate scrutiny, whereas the latter is subject (in g…

It seems ridiculous for it to turn out that way. Let's make sure we have enough men in college, but it's wrong to increase the Black representation?

The rules about sex-based discrimination were not crafted for the purpose of college admissions. This is just how the law has evolved around treating people of different sexes and races differently.

Another consequence of having the looser "intermediate scrutiny" for sex discrimination is that the FBI can have different fitness requirement for male and female recruits. Ditto for armed forces, and for laws relating to pregnancy.