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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#291

Post by marcusverus »

etempleton wrote: post #110

Part of the American dream is that the feeling that there is no rigid social class. Everyone is a millionaire down on their luck. You only need to work harder or be more clever—ideally both. To some extent, it is true. Realistically, however, it is rare to move more than one or two income brackets from where your parents were when they were your age. Race in America, however, is fraught. The history of racism is rece…

> Affirmative action is problematic and has some negative side effects, but it has probably been a net positive for society.

I'm interested to see that you consider it to have been net positive for society. What tangible benefits outweigh the obvious negatives?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#292

Post by lamontcg »

I agree with the headline.

And liberalism putting identity politics first divides the electorate and makes it so we can't make any progress on overwhelmingly popular economic policies (e.g. universal health care, college and child care), which is by-design. And the Democrats will continue to take money from corporate interests and happily fail to deliver on any really big policies which would move the needle for the bulk of Americans. Middle and upper class liberals will continue to scream about racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic people--who will continue to be those things and vote Republican and nothing will get done.

But The Economist packaging up the end of Affirmative Action with a message about how maybe that is a good thing because we might restructure it around class (we won't) is a bit disingenuous.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#293

Post by Manuel_D »

duvenaud wrote: post #288
okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

As a STEM academic, I can say that I've never seen or heard of ongoing AA for men in any STEM program in any institution whose policies I'm acquainted with. So it seems to me to be misleading to claim, or at least hard to believe, that very many men in college have been beneficiaries of AA for men.

For technology focused universities, women usually have higher admission rates than men: https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/can-your-gender-give...

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#294

Post by _carbyau_ »

kenjackson wrote: post #54
chrischattin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Nobody wants to think their success was the result of an unfair arbitrary advantage.

And this is why the term "white privilege" sells so poorly to whites. And why CRT is attacked so vigorously. Everyone likes to think they made it on their own. The guy who inherited a multi-million dollar business thinks he has had no more real advantage than then guy who was raised in an orphanage in Uganda. While I firmly believe that this privilege exists, you just can't legislate based on it, because you'll get n…

Also, in a society so bent on making money, what do you want the "guy who inherited a multi-million dollar business" to do? Give it up?

No. He is going to do what everyone is doing. Compete with every tool in his arsenal.

And from his point of view, the competition is a whole bunch of people who inherited THEIR wealth and plenty of people MORE wealthy. Does he see himself as having a privilege compared to all of those people?

Is he going to want to give up any privilege he's got? Especially if some of his competition aren't affected?

I'm not saying it is right. But you'll never get them to agree.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#295

Post by buerkle »

anyonecancode wrote: post #246
coyotespike wrote: post #187

Here in Texas, any student from the top 10% of their high school is guaranteed a place at the flagship University of Texas at Austin. This is widely understood to be a form of affirmative action. Naturally, high schools in underprivileged areas - rural or urban - will produce students who are nowhere nearly as prepared as students from elite or wealthy schools. We ignore that difference as a policy matter. Top 10% is…

I've read speculation that this could find itself on shaky legal foundations depending on how SCOTUS rules on the latest affirmative action case? Not a lawyer so can't really tell if that's just FUD or a real concern. I think the TX approach is really interesting and would hate to see it ended.

The TX system creates weird incentives. I know kids have dropped electives because it drops their GPAs making it more difficult to get in the top 10%. And it's worsened because many of the high schools grade higher level course on a 6.0 scale.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#296

Post by okwubodu »

weaksauce wrote: post #276
okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

> I think 50% of the population suddenly realizing they were beneficiaries of affirmative action this whole time—and subsequently understanding the nuances of discrimination in this country—will ultimately be a good thing. I doubt that if they haven't figured out it's a nuanced thing by now that they will figure that out after the second order effects come into play.

Maybe I’m more optimistic than most.

In any case, the gymnastics needed to explain why one was totally wrong and the other is absolutely necessary will bring about an era of US dominance in the sport.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#297

Post by kmeisthax »

Test0129 wrote: post #228
TimTheTinker wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White privilege" is like a DSM-5 diagnosis. It's only brought up with a treatment (or remedy) in mind. It's intended more as a tool to bring about a particular outcome, and less as a description of a scientifically measurable reality. I don't object to the use of "white privilege" to attempt an objective description of reality. I do object to the notion that more discrimination on the basis of race is the answer. Yo…

I object to the use of "white privilege" on first principles: Interpreted literally, it implies all whites are privileged. This is categorically untrue. It encourages racism through associating an immutable trait with a negative word. "White privilege" is no more true than saying "Jewish privilege" or "Asian privilege" when referring to trends that do not reflect the whole. For the latter two one would be accused of…

"White privilege" means that you fit in the particular mold that American society pours and casts people out of. Nothing more and nothing less. If you want to object to the jargon on the grounds of being jargon, fine, but I've yet to find better terminology than this.

It doesn't mean that all white people are rich, it means that poor white people are in less of a shitty situation than equally-improverished black people. It could be as simple as just living in a better ZIP code with more opportunities in it[0], for example. But it's still a shitty situation, in the same way that third-degree burns are bad but different from a broken arm.

The constant self-flaggelation approach is actually opposed by a lot of anti-racists specifically because it takes focus away from the victims of racism and to people who benefit from it.

[0] Thanks, Robert Moses.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#298

Post by etchalon »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #278
okwubodu wrote: post #261

The second order effects of affirmative action's repeal are going to be very entertaining. You can get a sneak peek by taking a look at the student body at a school like UT Austin where, by law, 75% of students must be in-state and automatically admitted according to class rank (GPA). https://admissions.utexas.edu/explore/freshman-profile You'll notice that when comparing Harvard and UT's student bodies to the US and…

And, it'll be awesome. In the short term, the few black kids and women who end up in engineering will get respect for making it into the program. And, hopefully a few years later, they'll no longer be looked at as diversity hires.

People were accusing people of being "diversity hires", or having "slept their way to top", or similar dismissive nonsense long before AA was in wide use.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#299

Post by jwond »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #39

This was a pretty core topic of conversation around Bernie's run for president, and Marxist lefties have been saying this quite consistently. Would be fascinating to see the Economist actually engage with some of that directly.

Bernie also said “when you’re white you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto, you don’t know what it’s like to be poor”

https://youtu.be/z6IlGoeDIUQ&t=0m42s

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#300

Post by Manuel_D »

daxfohl wrote: post #172
Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #24

>Surveys show that majorities of African-Americans, Californians, Democrats and Hispanics all oppose the use of race in college admissions (and in other areas). This was surprising to me.

The way a survey question is phrased can dramatically affect the responses. Without references, I assume some cherry picking and loaded phrasing here.

The survey specifically asks about racial discrimination. There is indeed more widespread support for "affirmative action", but not race-based affirmative action. I don't think the supreme court is going to strike down policies favoring first generation college students or low income students, only those focused on race.
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