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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#651

Post by germandiago »

clum wrote: post #232
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

It's also the companies that use C++ in my market (Embedded, Germany): They are either "old" industries (cars, car-parts, industrial machines, military equipment, embedded stuff) or consultancies working for these companies. Very few of them have any real flexibility nor do they care about their employees' wishes much. I have been looking for a 20h/week remote job (I have 5+ YOE) in this field for a few months and ba…

Immoral clause sounds to me like too much. If conditions are bad, just leave. They will have to change them eventually, that's it.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#652

Post by mk89 »

ackfoobar wrote: post #545
mk89 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that I also am learning c++ since some months and I have a very similar feedback as you. Just to add something: > - C++ 20 concepts are a near mirror copy of Rust Traits and enable composition that's an alternative to inheritance, again difficult to find examples of I don't know Rust, but they remind me of Scala traits. I guess it's conceptually the same, and Scala comes first :) > - The features that mak…

> I don't know Rust, but they remind me of Scala traits. I guess it's conceptually the same Rust's traits are typeclasses. Scala's traits are like Java interfaces but more.

you're right, Scala has also type classes, though. Generics, traits, variance, etc., are all quite sophisticated in Scala. I wouldn't say it's taken from Rust. The idea had been there for a while.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#653

Post by chaostheory »

intelVISA wrote: post #570
rychco wrote: post #209

I’ll offer a perspective unrelated to pay: It’s a pain to start learning C++, and even after you do, older devs will roast the hell out of your code because your book/tutorials of choice forgot to mention a crucial (in their opinion) feature that you absolutely should/shouldn’t use! Not to mention you’ve only programmed on Mac/Linux so far & windows is totally different, has a different compiler, different ways to in…

As a C++ enjoyer I would 100% have learned Rust if it was around when I started... just for Cargo alone. Problem is now I've already done my time in the Makefile trenches there's little incentive in me re-learning another systems lang and having to compete with lots of smarter people, with more Rust exp, for jobs whilst giving up all my arcane knowledge of CMake and friends. Rust being popular atm is great for C++ if…

I wonder how the Cobol market is doing?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#654

Post by insanitybit »

gridspy wrote: post #616
insanitybit wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having learned C/C++ as my first languages I can say I'm quite glad for it. I was able to learn so fucking much. 1. Object oriented programming, complete with inheritance and virtual dispatch 2. Pure Functional Programming, lambdas, const correctness, template metaprogramming 3. Type system fuckery - the things you can do in C++'s TMP is insane. Both nominal and duck typing in the language. 4. Hardware - I watched so…

7. Fundimental underpinnings - Every other language is written essentially in C - you can often understand how their features WORK if you know C extremely well. ... I'd argue that 1,2 are covered by rust. 3 and 6 by unsafe rust. Once you have that, a transition to pure C for the full 7 makes sense, and would be trivial for a rust dev.

I'm fairly proficient in Rust and I think it has its own strengths for learning, but its own downsides too.

Pros:

1. Way easier to get "live" help, I've found the barrier to ask for Rust help is lower than any other language I've ever used (and I've used a lot)

2. Way easier tooling like cargo, error messages are far better, especially with regards to generics vs templates

3. Some things are more explicit in Rust. Like `Box` is very explicit about dynamic dispatch, I don't recall that being the case in C++.

Cons:

1. Rust's "codex" of knowledge is nowhere near C++. There are tons of conference talks, books, blog posts, etc on C++. Not just on C++ but also on hardware as seen through C++, security, etc.

2. Implementing low level data structures in Rust is an advanced practice. Implementing them in C++ is trivial. I get that it's trivial because C++ doesn't give a fuck about your pointers, but if you're just trying to learn data structures you really just need to be focusing on happy paths and whatnot (as a student).

So idk, at this point I tend to recommend Rust, but I also end up having to link people to talks on C++ sometimes! Herb Sutter and Scott Meyer are amazing speakers and writers and that's a very hard thing to replace.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#655

Post by kaizendad »

This is good, right? There are better languages for most (although certainly not all) purposes, whether you measure "better" through features like memory-safety or through developer happiness or anything in between.

Most of the systems that were written in C++ in the past didn't have to be written in C++. Now they'll become hard to support, because they are in fact hard to support, and eventually they will be refactored or rewritten.

Same thing happened with Assembly and COBOL programs being written into C++.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#656

Post by gridspy »

inetknght wrote: post #168
WkndTriathlete wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but wonder if developers are simply off-put by the complexity of the language itself. Way back in 1989 I was fortunate enough to get Borland's C/C++ compiler, the K&R C book, and Stroustrup's C++ book - which, at the time, was about the same size as the K&R C book. The C++ language was relatively simple to learn at that time: no STL, no odd pointer types, no template metaprogramming, etc. Fast-forward to…

> I only have a guess as to what a `shared_ptr` or `unique_ptr` type is, and I certainly don't know when to use them, and concepts/traits outlined in the STL documentation seem to be some sort of generalizations that the STL might provide default implementations for, but might not? What exactly is the syntax and/or type of a lambda function and how do they interact with C function pointers? etc., etc. And that's exac…

A series of expert-level blog articles guided by your experiences teaching a pre-2010 C++ guru would probably be well received by other such "ex-gurus." They would need to be definitive, detailed, verbose and bring the reader up to C++ lawyer in the relevant new feature to be interesting.

A trip through the graphics pipeline has the correct level of detail:

https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/a-trip-through-the-...

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#657

Post by benttoothpaste »

deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

My last C++ job was for a robotics company a few years ago (pre pandemic). The job was not very “embedded”, but quite challenging - processing noisy images from lidars, etc. I worked 60 hour weeks and my salary was 80k or so. Then I realized I can get twice as much just writing Python micro services. So I became a Python developer instead. Much less stress and a lot more free time too.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#658

Post by jleahy »

kaizendad wrote: post #655

This is good, right? There are better languages for most (although certainly not all) purposes, whether you measure "better" through features like memory-safety or through developer happiness or anything in between. Most of the systems that were written in C++ in the past didn't have to be written in C++. Now they'll become hard to support, because they are in fact hard to support, and eventually they will be refacto…

Unfortunately high frequency trading is an area where C++ is normally the right choice, even for a new project.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#659

Post by colinmhayes »

electrondood wrote: post #315
mhfu wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I build glorified CRUD apps in NodeJS + React, my friend works on some embedded C++ stuff. - My working hours are way more flexible. I pretty much only have to attend meetings which are rare, so I can basically work whenever I want during the day. That means that I can go to the dentist and stuff like that without taking the day off. She has pretty strict hours. - I can work from anywhere, only requirement is de…

> glorified CRUD apps Why is API design/backend engineering the only software discipline that gets maligned like this? These are bread-and-butter operations. I don't mean to attack you, just noting that I never hear anyone talk about mobile development in the same way, for example.

backend web dev can feel tedious/monotonous imo.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#660

Post by varajelle »

jleahy wrote: post #658
kaizendad wrote: post #655

This is good, right? There are better languages for most (although certainly not all) purposes, whether you measure "better" through features like memory-safety or through developer happiness or anything in between. Most of the systems that were written in C++ in the past didn't have to be written in C++. Now they'll become hard to support, because they are in fact hard to support, and eventually they will be refacto…

Unfortunately high frequency trading is an area where C++ is normally the right choice, even for a new project.

Why not rust?
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