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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#571

Post by returningfory2 »

gigel82 wrote: post #372
selfmodruntime wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. No matter gray beards bashing Rust on HN every time it comes up, programming in Rust brings me joy and I will never use C++ again if I have a choice.

Interesting; could this be because you've been using outdated C++ ? (legacy codebases started before C++98 tend to be particularly painful) FWIW, I prefer the power of C++ over Rust's hand-holding; but can also see its appeal for someone that's not as confident over the minutia.

> ... but can also see its appeal for someone that's not as confident over the minutia.

I think this is mischaracterization of why people choose Rust (and FWIW it comes across as condescending). People choose Rust over C++ partially for the same reason people write unit tests. We accept that no matter how good we are at writing software, we are still fallible, and so we introduce structures around our work to minimize the fallout from that fallibility.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#572

Post by intelVISA »

littlestymaar wrote: post #553
DeathArrow wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>C++ as a whole should be deprecated -- and no new projects should use C++ (unless for some very odd and specific reason). And what can be used instead of C++? C? If C was better, then C++ wouldn't have been invented. Rust? It's much more painful to use than C++. Zig? It's immature and has very low usage. Nim? Has very low user base. Julia? It isn't solving the same problems.

> Rust? It's much more painful to use than C++. Unless you're doing something really highly specific to C++ (like Cuda for instance or deep integration with big C++ codebase), saying that rust is painful compared to C++ is laughable.

Gonna have to unwrap() this take

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#573

Post by gpderetta »

gavinray wrote: post #464

As someone who has been painfully self-teaching C++ for the last ~1.5 years on and on, these are my hangups: - The features that make C++ decent are often found in C++ 20/23, for which there are woefully few resources - Code taking advantage of coroutines and generators isn't commonplace yet, rare to find examples - C++ 20 concepts are a near mirror copy of Rust Traits and enable composition that's an alternative to…

FWIW the concept feature of c++20 has very little in common with rust traits. C++ concepts are closer to type assertions and aren't really a type system for templates.

The old c++0x concepts proposal was much closer (and of course precedes them), bit turned out it was harder to make it work.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#574

Post by 22SAS »

jart wrote: post #19
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

Isn't it common for C++ devs in finance to make seven figure salaries?

No. I work in HFT and this happens in only two cases:

1. At top-tier firms like HRT, Citadel Securities, Jump, TGS, RenTech; there are a decent amount of C++ devs making 7-figures. In many cases, it may depend on how profitable their desk is.

2. At most other firms (mine included), only very senior devs are making 7-figures. These are people managing or overseeing many teams.

This BS that HFT C++ devs make craptons of money has been spread by tech bros and college kids, who have never worked in HFT.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#575

Post by 22SAS »

kevstev wrote: post #542
jart wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it common for C++ devs in finance to make seven figure salaries?

Not at all. This is a complete falsehood spread most likely by the financial companies themselves. I worked at Investment Banks for many years, doing low level C/C++ type stuff in various flavors of algorithmic trading and high frequency trading. I left in 2014, because I got an offer for 40% more just doing pure web stuff in Javascript. In the years since I have more than quadrupled my TC, and my neighbor, who is es…

Banks in general pay a lot less for C++ devs than prop trading firms do.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#576

Post by intelVISA »

deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

The life hack here is to pick up a handful of web jobs and keep C++ for leisure.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#577

Post by [deleted] »

chrisseaton wrote: post #159
cortesoft wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is paying the implementers of those languages

> No one is paying the implementers of those languages Lol what? Yes they are. I literally work with a whole team of them! Teams at Goole, Apple, Mozilla, etc etc as well.

[deleted]

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#578

Post by 22SAS »

bambataa wrote: post #415
twic wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150k plus bonus. It's at a quant firm, so the bonus is likely to be ~50% of base salary if you do okay, and multiples of that if you do great.

What are hours like at HFs and quant firms? I’ve heard they can be bad.

That's another load of BS spread by people not in the industry. They equate HFT's and quantitative hedge funds the same as investment banks. At most HFT's, mine included, devs are mostly doing 40-45 hours a week. Some places like Citadel, Headlands, the work hours are terrible (still not IB level bad), but the rest of the places it varies between 40-50.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#579

Post by Supermancho »

chrisseaton wrote: post #546
snapcaster wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand that it's the ratio and comparative numbers right? A single team of C++ developers creating that stuff can support infinity python programmers building on top

Yeah - but it's not 'no one'.

I'm not sure how being pedantic changes the perception, or state, of the industry.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#580

Post by ayberk »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #504
ayberk wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been writing C++ at Google, this exactly. Despite all the tooling, guidelines and "internal magic", C++ is still an abomination. And no it has nothing to do with memory management, I actually do like C. I love how Eric Raymond describes it as "anti-compact", because, well, it really is. C++ as a whole should be deprecated -- and no new projects should use C++ (unless for some very odd and specific…

> C++ as a whole should be deprecated -- and no new projects should use C++ (unless for some very odd and specific reason). It's quite a bit easier than Rust and no other popular language has its most important features (cross platform, interfaces with syscalls and other libraries easily, manual memory management possible, likely to be supported for a long time).

It _looks_ easier because it lets you do anything you want. C++ makes you feel like you're going faster, but then you spend two weeks debugging a weird memory issue.

I come from functional programming background, so I'm all for taking a little bit longer to make my code compile if that means it'll work. I'd rather deal with compilation errors than waking up at 2am to debug a stupid segfault.

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