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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

efinancialcareers.com

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#521

Post by mk89 »

63 wrote: post #137
kibwen wrote: post #57

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very exist…

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.

Yes and the best part is that companies instead of migrating from Java to something lighter are simply trying new things like GraalVM which makes native executables.

So your developers can keep on writing crappy and heavy spring boot applications (which need 10-15 seconds in best case scenarios to to start) and eventually be "graalvm-ed" to produce a native executable that starts in I mean, that's a brilliant evolution (no jokes). This is how you keep in the game without getting devoured by Go and similar.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#522

Post by pessimizer »

63 wrote: post #137
kibwen wrote: post #57

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very exist…

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.

> all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.

It didn't have much of an advantage at the time either. It's advantage was that Sun was willing to shower SPARC boxes on your university for almost nothing if you were willing to move your core curriculum to Java.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#523

Post by zozbot234 »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #506
rychco wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mark Russinovich (of Sysinternals fame), thinks Rust should be the non-GC language of choice moving forward. https://twitter.com/markrussinovich/status/15719951172335042...

If people think C++ is hard to learn and attracts opinionated people boy are they in for a surprise when they start using Rust.

Rust is way easier to learn than C++.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#524

Post by flohofwoe »

inetknght wrote: post #183
flohofwoe wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with the C++ ecosystem, it is actually many vastly different ecosystems mashed together. It's impossible to find a "C++ developer" because there is no agreed upon "one C++ style". It seems what you're looking for is a "C++ developer who likes to write the same C++ style as myself" ;)

> It seems what you're looking for is a "C++ developer who likes to write the same C++ style as myself" ;) No, I'm perfectly content with someone writing C++ in a different style. What I'm not content with is someone who uses old code without a technical reason why. C style arrays, for example, are 100% inferior to std::array. Old loops with indices are maybe 80% (off the cuff guesstimate) inferior to ranged-for. The…

> C style arrays, for example, are 100% inferior to std::array.

Are the advantages of std::array over C arrays big enough to add 8kloc to each compilation unit though? (https://www.godbolt.org/z/8noTndhcv)

A range-checked std::array replacement can probably be written in a few dozen lines of code.

That's the problem with all C++ stdlib headers, they are incredibly overengineered for what they bring to the table.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#525

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

goalieca wrote: post #484
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because Python pays more. In the extremely underpaid start-up world? C, Java, C++, Kotlin, Swift, etc - IIUC pay MUCH better and are more in demand at companies where you really make good money as an engineer.

In the past few years I’ve discussed salaries with dozens of companies as a staff level IC. C++ companies pay significantly less even if the work is far more specialized and challenging. The real money is in “Cloud + python/golang”.

Dozens of highly profitable public tech companies?

There's really on APPL, GOOG, MSFT, AMZN, FB.

Pinterest, AirBNB, Adobe, Intuit, Snap, Roblox, etc are usually a pretty big drop in pay - but usually above all but the highest of high paying startups.

The vast majority of actual cloud jobs - building cloud infrastructure - are low-level - not Python.

Are you talking about startups using AWS? I'm not sure that's a "cloud" job.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#526

Post by kyawzazaw »

UltraViolence wrote: post #265
spacemadness wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no expert, but I am under the impression for HFT that high performance is the absolute goal and slight percentages in performance can affect profits.

HFT entails only a small part of the usage of C++. It's still being used in many embedded systems (including automotive, aviation and building automation), where Rust is also available. Interop is always possible with C/C++ so there's little excuse not to use Rust there.

But the origin of the article is from efinancialcareers. They are most definitely not gonna switch to Rust

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#527

Post by deathanatos »

jmnicolas wrote: post #503

Unless proved otherwise I always assumes that when employers say there's a shortage of any skilled labour they just mean they can't find someone cheap enough.

Exactly this. I know C++; I'm not using that knowledge. So, there's at least me in the talent pool. And my inbox continues to indicate that recruiters are anything but serious about hiring.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#529

Post by dureuill »

fouronnes3 wrote: post #177
btilly wrote: post #41

I've seen this story several times. Once a language no longer has a developer pipeline, it becomes a language with no future. No matter how important and widely used. You wind up with jobs begging for qualified developers. Given how systems last, the language may survive indefinitely. As nobody dares migrate projects off of it. But employers will struggle more and more to find employees. The first language that this…

If you're an experienced C++ developer today, is it a wise career choice to go the "C++ expert" route, or should you pivot to something else?

C++ jobs are not going anywhere, quite the contrary. A lot of systems won't be rewritten. Besides, at least at the moment "C++ expert" is a perfect background for becoming a Rust expert should the want arise.

Rust *is* much more enjoyable to program in than C++, though

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#530

Post by zozbot234 »

kibwen wrote: post #57

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very exist…

This, pretty much. Long before there was anything like Rust, Java was the memory-safe alernative to C++ for larger projects. And yes it was slow and clunky, but devs still put up with it because the benefits were so compelling.
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