Earlier quoted context omitted.
my guess is it’s the same rewards that drove people to run usenet servers, bbs servers, irc servers, forums, countless open-source projects, and whatever other non-centralized platforms flourished in the past and present.
Like I said, notoriety and control of users. People ran BBS servers to be sysops, IRC servers to get O:lines, open source projects to get their name out there, etc. "Pure altriusm" could also be a motivator.
Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
241–250 of 276 posts
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
So if it serves a different use case then Twitter, why is it even advertised, or talked about, as a replacement?
It's not very different. The hardest thing to grasp is the decentralization.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#243Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That doesn't _really_ matter, though; Mastodon sites largely interconnect. I'm on mastodon.social because I am very lazy Mastodon is a mess. Pawoo.net is the LARGEST userbase Mastodon node, professionally ran by a company and is one of the few that can scale appropriately to demand. You'll find that mastodon.social has limited its federation abilities with it. Your choice of Mastodon nodes matter.
Folks on pawoo.net regularly post lolicon, so, yeah. Depending on your interpretation of your local laws, you might pretty much be obligated to defederate from that sort of thing. I think focusing on what has the biggest userbase or can give you the most reach is kind of missing the point with regard to the Fediverse. Without investors or stock prices or the need to sell ads, a lot of the motivation behind that sort…
Which isn't that obvious that there is a problem as a new user. People are posting all kinds of trash on Twitter equally, you don't expect to find the entire node is blocked because some users are posting things some others disagree with.
> Depending on your interpretation of your local laws, you might pretty much be obligated to defederate from that sort of thing.
Not that I'm defending this, but because you mentioned it; I looked it up. Mastodon.social isn't obliged because it's located in Germany and so is Eugen; so this reasoning doesn't apply. Block the problem users, not the entire instance.
> I think focusing on what has the biggest userbase or can give you the most reach is kind of missing the point with regard to the Fediverse.
I looked for which node was ran with reliability and scaling built in, because I didn't want to be on a node that is ran by some hobbyist that is just going to give up one day, I also don't want to be on a server that falls over because scaling problems. Pawoo was top of the list.
This was further validated when my second account on another node disappeared one day because the owner decided they didn't want to continue running their node anymore. And further validated on other nodes where the server became so slow it was practically unusable, the server owner didn't really have any idea how to deal with the userbase.
I tried running Mastodon myself, but quickly found it awful to keep updated; at the time (I don't know if it still does), it wasn't very clean to update and was fairly manual. I eventually switched to GNU Social with the Qwitter addon because it was easier to maintain and update, only for Mastodon to decide to drop support for the federating protocol it was using one day.
You're absolutely right though, I don't get the key point of the fediverse currently.
> Without investors or stock prices or the need to sell ads, a lot of the motivation behind that sort of thinking evaporates.
If we take your logic to its ultimate conclusion, you're saying that without investors or stock prices or the need to sell ads, the motivation behind making a good and sane experience evaporates, considering the state it's been in for years. I honestly wouldn't try to disparage open source community projects like that to be honest.
> If you're looking at Mastodon and thinking "this is worthless, I can't build my brand with this," good, you're right, it's built that way on purpose.
I don't care about stock, brands. I'm looking at Mastodon and thinking that it's got serious communication, usability, data and privacy issues. It has so many basic things fundamentally broken. On Twitter, if you delete a post, it's gone. On Mastodon, delete a post, well, it's deleted on your node. But the rest of the fediverse has replicated it and it's not deleted. The other nodes aren't even keeping your data maliciously, it's just poorly designed and the fact it still won't tell you that "deleting" messages doesn't really "delete" them is plain vindinctive at this point after it has been raised as an issue repeatedly.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hashtags play a huge role on Mastodon - discover people by following hashtags I'm probably twiddling the wrong buttons or something but whenever I've clicked on a Fediverse hashtag, it's always just been the hashtag on the originating server . Is there a way to get a wider view that I've missed?
"The original server" should also show relevant posts from other servers, unless they are blacklisted.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#245Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hashtags play a huge role on Mastodon - discover people by following hashtags I'm probably twiddling the wrong buttons or something but whenever I've clicked on a Fediverse hashtag, it's always just been the hashtag on the originating server . Is there a way to get a wider view that I've missed?
"The original server" should also show relevant posts from other servers, unless they are blacklisted.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#246I've been pondering: If 1% of Twitter users move to Mastodon, can it even handle it? 1% is ~4.5M users, currently the entire Fediverse is around 5.5M users, so that'd be nearly doubling. In looking at the server lists when I tried to sign up, many of them were closed for invites and mastodon.social where I had previously signed up wouldn't load the homepage. Sounds like the mastodon.social admin is ordering new hardw…
I don't think anything built on traditional tech will catch on. Whenever I see anything touting decentralization, I always look at the setup instructions because I think the setup complexity will dictate the adoption potential. With Mastodon, it looks like Ruby on Rails, Node.js, PostgreSQL, and Redis for the backend stuff. For me, the only realistic way I'd run a node would be via Docker (Compose) which means I'm li…
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#247Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
Folks on pawoo.net regularly post lolicon, so, yeah. Depending on your interpretation of your local laws, you might pretty much be obligated to defederate from that sort of thing. I think focusing on what has the biggest userbase or can give you the most reach is kind of missing the point with regard to the Fediverse. Without investors or stock prices or the need to sell ads, a lot of the motivation behind that sort…
> Folks on pawoo.net regularly post lolicon Which isn't that obvious that there is a problem as a new user. People are posting all kinds of trash on Twitter equally, you don't expect to find the entire node is blocked because some users are posting things some others disagree with. > Depending on your interpretation of your local laws, you might pretty much be obligated to defederate from that sort of thing. Not that…
No, but I do expect the owner of the site to moderate its content. Pawoo doesn't care to; as a result, many people care not to federate with them. That's fine. You can still use Pawoo if you want to, or a server that federates with it, or set up your own and federate with them.
> Block the problem users, not the entire instance.
If it's a recurring problem that the owners of the instance won't do anything about, it's a lot less work to just block the entire instance.
> I looked for which node was ran with reliability and scaling built in, because I didn't want to be on a node that is ran by some hobbyist that is just going to give up one day, I also don't want to be on a server that falls over because scaling problems.
You're thinking like you're a customer, but on the Fediverse you're generally more like a houseguest.
> I tried running Mastodon myself, but quickly found it awful to keep updated
You've got a fair point there; I'm not sure why they can't distribute a container image with the assets pre-built instead of making you build your own. It's been trouble-free for me since I got it up and running, for what it's worth.
Lots of other things speak ActivityPub, though. If you're looking for something as simple as possible, you might like https://microblog.pub/
> I eventually switched to GNU Social with the Qwitter addon because it was easier to maintain and update, only for Mastodon to decide to drop support for the federating protocol it was using one day.
I haven't used it, but for what it's worth, the documentation for GNU Social seems to indicate that it supports ActivityPub these days. OStatus never made it past the draft stage, and GNU Social seems to be the last project hanging on to it.
> If we take your logic to its ultimate conclusion, you're saying that without investors or stock prices or the need to sell ads, the motivation behind making a good and sane experience evaporates, considering the state it's been in for years.
People mostly run instances for free, for fun, for their friends. The motivation is to have fun hanging out with friends on the internet. For this purpose, it seems to be pretty good at its job to me, and gets better at it with every version. The lack of financial incentive does mean there's no drive to capture more eyeballs, though, which means there's no drive to cater to folks that would rather have something exactly like Twitter.
> I honestly wouldn't try to disparage open source community projects like that to be honest.
I'm not sure what words you're trying to put in my mouth here, but that sentence certainly doesn't give me impression that you're trying to have a good-faith discussion.
> It has so many basic things fundamentally broken. On Twitter, if you delete a post, it's gone. On Mastodon, delete a post, well, it's deleted on your node. But the rest of the fediverse has replicated it and it's not deleted.
Yes, email works this way as well. It is an unavoidable consequence of federation. ActivityPub does have a "Delete" activity, but other servers are under no obligation to honor it. Regardless of what protocol is in use, once you've sent data to someone else's server, you're not going to be able to delete it without that server's cooperation.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#24970k users doesn't seem like that many...and I am not sure I'd call them "users" yet, technically I'm a "user" but I checked it out for a few months here and there and don't plan on ever going back. The entire experience felt really clunky to me and moving the pin seems like a tough pull that would take quite awhile. but you know just my opinion!
How do you eat an elephant? A bite at a time.
Re: Mastodon gained 70k users after Musk’s Twitter takeover
#250People used to think the network effect for MySpace and Friendster were insurmountable. I played around with Mastodon last night and I think it has some bad but not insurmountable ergonomic wrinkles, but I worry its decentralization will prevent it from ever becoming mainstream. Centralization makes it easier to deal with "bad" actors. Also Discovery is a huge problem: how do I discover people I know? How do content…
Moderation is a problem that scales terribly. We haven't actually solved moderation at scale, no matter how many algorithms and ML models we throw at it. That was part of the ridiculous opening salvo by Musk, if you'll recall, that Twitter was full of unmoderated bots and if they just sent him a ton of their data his engineers would find a better way to moderate over lunch. They did and his engineers didn't and he reneged on the deal at that point and became a morass for the courts.
Moderation is labor. The number of moderators you need per volume doesn't scale well, no matter how many tools you throw at it. This seems to be the repeating lesson of both Twitter and Facebook. We have too much data from Facebook that auto-moderation tools plus scale make the labor of moderation terrifyingly worse: instead of moderation being a continuous background process of seeing 97% fine posts and the occasional 3% of bad actor posts, moderators are fed streams of the opposite: 97% content from bad actors. This has huge mental health issues with many reports of PTSD and worse from Facebook's human moderators.
Decentralization necessitates more moderators and naturally spreads out the work of moderators to give individual moderators less to do "in their local neighborhood". It returns to a background activity where moderating the bad actors is a small effort compared to other things going on in an instance. Instances may be invite-only, further minimizing the role of a moderator on a small instance versus the threat of bad actors.
Reports of bad activity often get seen by at least two moderators: a moderator on your local instance and a moderator on the remote instance where the bad actor is. Mastodon provides a number of tools to moderators on both sides of that: the local moderator may silence all of a bad actor's content locally and can escalate that to silence or blocking a remote instance if the implication is the remote instance tolerates too many bad actors. The remote instance can put bad actors on probation or kick bad actors. Most of these tools are both quite easy to work with and powerful enough for most needs on Mastodon today.
Decentralization also shrinks the "blast radius" of a potential bad actor: bad actors can create all the instances they want, certainly, but if no one is following those instances, does anyone really notice? It's a tree falls in the forest problem. There's often a lot of "fediblock" drama when new instances from entirely bad actors show up, but often the "fediblock" messages themselves are much more viral than any possible bad actor (because admins/moderators care for each other in a decentralized manner).
> how do I discover people I know?
How do you discover someone's email address? How do you discover someone's blog? How do you discover someone's mailing list or Discord or YouTube Channel or Twitch Channel or …?
Discovery could obviously be better on Mastodon, but discovery is also an on-going process people do decentralized all the time, through word of mouth, through friend's recommendations, through other channels, through in person events, through friends' retweets (boosts in Mastodon) of other interesting people that they follow.
Some of the "huge problem" of discovery on Mastodon has nothing to do with Mastodon and everything to do with network effects. Not enough people use Mastodon so not enough people think to put Mastodon handles on their business or social cards. Not enough people think to add "follow me on Mastodon" after the usual "Like and Subscribe" in a YouTube video. Etc and so forth. From a network effects perspective discovery on Mastodon isn't a bigger catch-22 than "nobody is on it", discovery on Mastodon is the exact same catch-22. That's what makes it a catch-22: nobody is on Mastodon so nobody is talking/sharing about Mastodon so nobody is on Mastodon. Discovery on its own isn't a catch-22, it's a bootstrap problem. It's network effects that make discovery a catch-22.
> How do content creators who want to build an audience (and so create content that would attract users to the platform) get discovered?
How does anyone market anything on any platform? Discovery is marketing. Marketing is getting discovered. It's no different and arguably much better than (from a tooling standpoint) from the early days of Twitter when hashtags were just a search convention and not a built-in feature. All the usual tools from Twitter generally apply to Mastodon: virality and hash tags. Going viral is much harder on Mastodon with no "algorithms" to cajole and machines doing your work for you, just people to convince to boost you. Also, yes, there are a lot of instances that are defiantly allergic to obvious and outright marketing for major corporations or celebrities or general "influencing"/brands/branding. (Though many of those same instances adore small creators working independently and who wear their hearts on their sleeves, so long as they keep their marketing "human" and plain dealing and don't spam it.)