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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#371

Post by mywittyname »

mooreds wrote: post #64
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

There's lots of C++ programmers out there. But they're bottled up in FAANG, I think. So you have to be able to compete with that. Working at Google is on the whole a lot of C++. Major parts are moving to Go, certainly. But there's absolutely giant code-bases of pretty cleanly written C++ services, and most Googlers are quite proficient in it and there's whole teams at Google that work on improving C++ standards and t…

> All of this to say: if you want C++ programmers, you need to pay competitive enough rates to pull them away from there. I'd modify this to say "All of this to say: if you want programmers, you need to pay competitive rates." I worked in real estate for a while (as a software dev) and my boss, who was a realtor, always said "there's no house problem that price can't solve". The labor analogy for me is "there's no la…

> The labor analogy for me is "there's no labor shortage that salary can't solve".

Assuming the labor you need is fungible.

For a sandwich shop, raising pay will probably solve a labor shortage. But even salaries of $10,000,000 a year won't produce more surgeons. It might inspire more people to get into the pipeline, but that's a 10-15 year lag.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#372

Post by gigel82 »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #306
sigi64 wrote: post #189

I was a C++ programmer for 25 years. Last 3 years, I'm using Rust language in my daily job and for all my hobby projects. I will not return to work in C++ again. No money can make me to change my decision. Nowadays, programming is a pure joy for me again. This was not the case when I had to work with C++.

I agree. No matter gray beards bashing Rust on HN every time it comes up, programming in Rust brings me joy and I will never use C++ again if I have a choice.

Interesting; could this be because you've been using outdated C++ ? (legacy codebases started before C++98 tend to be particularly painful)

FWIW, I prefer the power of C++ over Rust's hand-holding; but can also see its appeal for someone that's not as confident over the minutia.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#373

Post by ryandrake »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #317
Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, web is generally more valuable. You don’t buy a new washing machine because the current firmware sucks, but you will shop somewhere else if Newegg’s website is terrible. That relationship is generally true where people rarely test embedded software until after a purchase, but people tend to jump ship more frequently online. Net result a lot of critical infrastructure and devices suck as much as possibl…

I’m building a house at the moment and I have been insisting that I am able to actually test all the built in appliances with power to see if the software is garbage. I have found that most of the high end brands have a completely horrible user experience. Miele is the worst I’ve tried, and I found that as you go up the price range even inside that brand the experience gets worse. The top end Miele induction cooktop…

The mere idea of waiting for a kitchen appliance to "boot up" makes me angry. How did we normalize this madness? Telephones, TVs, car engine instruments, HVAC thermostats, why can't any of these be instant-on like in the 80s? Apply power and it starts working is a basic design principle.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#374

Post by United857 »

C++ is still dominant in the AAA games world, and there's no signs of it ending its reigns at least at the engine level.

IMO it's not so much that there aren't talented C++ developers or "Rust is the new hotness", it's the long standing WLB/culture issues of the games or the finance industry that's causing many of them to burn out and move to FAANG/Microsoft/etc. (I'm one of them)

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#375

Post by FredPret »

clum wrote: post #232
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

It's also the companies that use C++ in my market (Embedded, Germany): They are either "old" industries (cars, car-parts, industrial machines, military equipment, embedded stuff) or consultancies working for these companies. Very few of them have any real flexibility nor do they care about their employees' wishes much. I have been looking for a 20h/week remote job (I have 5+ YOE) in this field for a few months and ba…

It’s survival of the fittest in the market and sounds like these companies aren’t it

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#377

Post by thedracle »

inetknght wrote: post #55

As a talented C++ developer... yes there is a dearth of talented C++ developers. I've been to several C++ conferences. Even there, many of the engineers end up learning "new" things that are IMO basic concepts that have been around for years. I recently went through a hiring phase for Senior C++ engineers and most of the applicants were familiar with old tech. It was really disheartening to me to realize how many "se…

The reality hammer hits quite a bit harder when people are playing the "fake it until you make it" game with C++ versus other languages as well.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#378

Post by galangalalgol »

bsder wrote: post #300
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

> Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. It's remote work. Remote work is basically forcing ALL software shops to pay more money. If you're smart enough to program C++, you can program ANYTHING . Let's stop calling it a labor shortage and call it what it really is--a salary shortage.

Yeah, but it is kind of unique in that the skillset is in demand for two different types of business, and one has a drastically higher profitability and demand for people. That by itself isn't that unique, there are any number of jobs that don't exist because the qualifications would make employees too expensive. But we actually rely on this stuff for our modern world, we need these jobs to exist, but we won't pay for it, so you only get those who love the work, and those who are too bad to do anything else. So far, that has been enough. Teachers, Nurses, and Vets are similar, so I don't guess it really is that unique. And we are seeing shortages in all of those too.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#379

Post by fluoridation »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #335

I was contemplating to work with C++, but coincidentally I got into C (microcontrollers) and C#/.NET (desktop apps). And every time when I am forced to work with C++ (.NET CLR DLL libraries) I am reminded about general typing overhead which I do not need to do in C# - i.e. HPP file with declarations and CPP file with definitions; Enums can't be translated to its string representation directly, but you need to have so…

It depends on what you do. There are things that can be very easily done in C++ with a macro or a template that are simply impossible in C# and you just end up hammering out brain-dead code.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#380

Post by WanderPanda »

Negitivefrags wrote: post #317
Retric wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, web is generally more valuable. You don’t buy a new washing machine because the current firmware sucks, but you will shop somewhere else if Newegg’s website is terrible. That relationship is generally true where people rarely test embedded software until after a purchase, but people tend to jump ship more frequently online. Net result a lot of critical infrastructure and devices suck as much as possibl…

I’m building a house at the moment and I have been insisting that I am able to actually test all the built in appliances with power to see if the software is garbage. I have found that most of the high end brands have a completely horrible user experience. Miele is the worst I’ve tried, and I found that as you go up the price range even inside that brand the experience gets worse. The top end Miele induction cooktop…

Same goes for car MMIs. Tesla is almost fine when it comes to the latency (still far behind an iPad e.g.) but other manufacturers are just atrocious in this respect
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