The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry • Hacker News Board

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#301

Post by thesuperbigfrog » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

bodhiandphysics wrote: post #148

63 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.

Java has a number of other advantages... you can effectively develop for Linux on a windows box. The vm architecture makes debugging easier. It has a large and useful body of code, including lots of libraries and features that ease interfacing with legacy systems (like corba and soap)

The time and effort needed to train Java developers versus C++ developers is also huge.

This means more Java developers are available for hire and they typically cost less than C++ developers. This reduced on-boarding time and reduced cost is extremely attractive for enterprises.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Post by selfmodruntime » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

rychco wrote: post #209

I’ll offer a perspective unrelated to pay: It’s a pain to start learning C++, and even after you do, older devs will roast the hell out of your code because your book/tutorials of choice forgot to mention a crucial (in their opinion) feature that you absolutely should/shouldn’t use! Not to mention you’ve only programmed on Mac/Linux so far & windows is totally different, has a different compiler, different ways to in…

This. Learning the language as a whole is an incredibly daunting task. It's ugly, it's built on a combination of OOP and procedural C and quite frankly, the class syntax in combination with header files has aged pretty bad. I feel like I have a lot of code I need to write twice.

The standard committee keeps tacking on new features and decade old footguns are promised to never be fixed (and somehow, people consider this a feature).

Tooling is even worse.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#303

Post by Bost » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #41

I've seen this story several times. Once a language no longer has a developer pipeline, it becomes a language with no future. No matter how important and widely used. You wind up with jobs begging for qualified developers. Given how systems last, the language may survive indefinitely. As nobody dares migrate projects off of it. But employers will struggle more and more to find employees. The first language that this…

> But nobody wants to go into COBOL for fairly obvious reasons.

On YouTube, type in "COBOL Mainframe", and you'll find out pretty quickly that there's a plenty of guys from India, including juniors who work with or on COBOL and Mainframes.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Post by cmrdporcupine » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

larve wrote: post #259

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I find astounding. I wonder how much is just EEs looking at SWE resumes and going "why would I pay that much for this?! writing code isn't that hard" I definitely get that vibe from some of the local hw-eng companies. And they may not be wrong, but.. sorry, that's supply and demand. If I have to go write stupid NodeJS stuff to get paid decently, I guess I'll have to go do that.

At a previous job, the project lead (mechanical) assigned the embedded team (2 people) writing the firmwares for 3 boards (multi-element heater control, motor controller and move orchestrator with custom BLDC setup, multi-sensor temperature probes) in 2 weeks over christmas, because the junior EE said “I can control a motor with arduino in 30 minutes.” My only guess as to why such a disconnect from reality was possib…

I mean, it's the same phenomenon I've seen even in webdev where a PM or UX person who has produced a whole series of mocks then hands it off to the "programmers" and demands a short schedule because... well... they did all the hard stuff, right? You're just making it "go."

People naturally see their own hard work and skills as primary. I know enough about HW Eng and EE to know that it's actually really hard. That said, it doesn't have the same kind of emergent complexity problems that software has. Not to say that HW eng doesn't have such problems, but they're a different kind.

If you see the product as "the board", then the stuff that runs on the board, that can end up just seeming ancillary.

Very frustrating, for sure.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#305

Post by inetknght » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

vips7L wrote: post #173

inetknght wrote: post #55

As a talented C++ developer... yes there is a dearth of talented C++ developers. I've been to several C++ conferences. Even there, many of the engineers end up learning "new" things that are IMO basic concepts that have been around for years. I recently went through a hiring phase for Senior C++ engineers and most of the applicants were familiar with old tech. It was really disheartening to me to realize how many "se…

I've had the same experience in Java. Experienced engineers that are learning "new" Java even though those features came out years ago. I really think this will be the case for any language. Most people are not the HN type that are going to live and breath programming.

I prefer to be proud that I've never touched Java... for Old Reasons. But that said, it's a valuable language.

It's nice to know that other languages have similar problems :)

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#306

Post by selfmodruntime » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

sigi64 wrote: post #189

I was a C++ programmer for 25 years. Last 3 years, I'm using Rust language in my daily job and for all my hobby projects. I will not return to work in C++ again. No money can make me to change my decision. Nowadays, programming is a pure joy for me again. This was not the case when I had to work with C++.

I agree. No matter gray beards bashing Rust on HN every time it comes up, programming in Rust brings me joy and I will never use C++ again if I have a choice.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Post by btilly » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

fouronnes3 wrote: post #177

btilly wrote: post #41

I've seen this story several times. Once a language no longer has a developer pipeline, it becomes a language with no future. No matter how important and widely used. You wind up with jobs begging for qualified developers. Given how systems last, the language may survive indefinitely. As nobody dares migrate projects off of it. But employers will struggle more and more to find employees. The first language that this…

If you're an experienced C++ developer today, is it a wise career choice to go the "C++ expert" route, or should you pivot to something else?

It depends how much you like working with legacy code, and how much you love C++.

If you stay the "C++ expert" route you will always have a job, but it will be every more gnarly legacy code. Because those who had relatively good legacy code are also those who are going to find it easiest to migrate off of it.

Judging by what happened in Perl (the example that I know best), I'm guessing that most developers will leave C++. Mostly for languages in a similar space. A lot will go to Rust.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#308

Post by fxtentacle » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

No, they're just cheapskates!

I remember this exact same recruiting agency spammed me a $120k offer to become Lead Developer for a new quantitive trading algorithm. For that salary, they also expected me to relocate to London. Some C++ consulting gigs pay $2k per day, so their offer just seemed really cheap in comparison.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Post by AndriyKunitsyn » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

yxhuvud wrote: post #205

boredtofears wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's insane to me... getting into systems programming recently I am well aware of how much harder it is than web dev.

Payment is not based on hardness, it is based on demand and supply.

Not only on hardness, but hardness influences how much of supply of competent workers the market has.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Post by kaylynb » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

This has been my experience in the US. C++ is my favorite language. I learned programming using it in the mid nineties. I still keep up with developments although I wouldn't consider myself the most skilled with it anymore.

The only job I've ever had that used it was a civil engineering company in a small city in the deep south, and it was mostly just C. The pay was good for the area, but nothing spectacular.

I moved to Seattle and the only C++ jobs were at FAANGs, and only a small portion of jobs at those companies. I worked at two FAANGs and only used Java and C#. I learned frontend web stacks largely due to job flexibility and it almost always pays the best vs amount of stress/work needed to put in.

Yeah I could probably write C++ at for 2x the salary but I'd also have to work 80h work weeks and deal with FAANG internal politics and sabotage from coworkers, depending on FAANG and which variation of "don't call it stack ranking" they use this year.

On the other hand I can use TypeScript and work from my home office. I've been considering moving back to the south just because much lower living expenses, family, and availability of remote work for web stacks. I can't get that with C++.