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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#281

Post by TremendousJudge »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #81
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All sane C++ codebases must use a defined subset of the language. Google's is one that works for them, with some pretty strong standardization. It's a good set of compromises. But you won't get far programming in it if you don't know the broader semantics of the language. I didn't do C++ from about 2003 to 2013. When I came back I was delighted . It's so much better.

I liken C++ (and other "industrial" languages, like PHP), to "advanced" tools, like the specialty tools and brands, that only professional mechanics know, like OTC. You won't get them at Home Depot. The language definitely has its niche, and I am glad to see it not being used for standard GUI programming, anymore. But for that niche, there's nothing better, and it's a big niche.

What can PHP do that other less vilified languages can't? What is its "niche"?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#282

Post by danuker »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #23
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…

> crypto-tainted

If the government did its job and we had sound money, and taxation were explicit instead of this wacky adjustable-and-unpredictable-devaluation that is inflation, there would be no need for cryptocurrency.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#283

Post by bogwog »

gigel82 wrote: post #171

The comments here worry me. I've been programming C++ professionally for 15+ years and I think my comp is pretty good. I didn't shop around though (maybe I should just to see what the market is like, but I hate LeetCode or whatever it is kids do nowadays :) ). We've noticed the C++ pool getting dry when hiring though; nowadays everyone that comes to interview uses Python and JavaScript. We're switching part of our st…

What industry are you in? From the comments, what I've gathered is that anything in the embedded space is awfully underpaid unless you work for Google/Apple/Microsoft/etc.

And finance can pay well, but web development pays better.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#284

Post by Brystephor »

Why doesn't c++ offer a language version that's trimmed down to "modern" rules? Meaning all things that were deprecated, or not recommended, are cut out of the language. What I find difficult is that there's several ways to do the same thing but each option has some nuance or gotcha with it. This is said as a beginner who did half of learncpp

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#285

Post by hpcjoe »

dsign wrote: post #15

The last time I searched for jobs, there were two competing automotive makers among the prospective employers. The one that offered the C++ position for programming Lidar systems offered a lower salary than the one that just wanted a generalist to wrangle scripts and systems. Beats me.

Auto companies notoriously pay their people poorly. They are losing many talented engineers as a result. I know quite a few in the industry here in Michigan. The engineers who remain at the autos, are blown away by the salaries their former colleagues are getting from SV companies.

I was mentoring a EE who wanted to up his game. He wanted to get into programming, and I pointed out that Python, C++, etc. are in demand at many companies right now. I asked him for his salary range, and for a 50+ year old engineer with 20 years of experience, it was pretty awful. Though, completely normal for the autos and their suppliers.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#286

Post by YetAnotherNick »

kibwen wrote: post #57

> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very exist…

> Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium

When was that C++'s lunch? I might be wrong, but for backend dev(majority of enterprise work?) C++ was never a big thing.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#287

Post by nprateem »

deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

And C++ is difficult & confusing. Other more modern languages have easier toolchains and fewer gotchas.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#288

Post by bsder »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #51
deaddabe wrote: post #9

Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…

> Employees may be leaving the embedded space Embedded opportunities have been slowly shrinking for years. For whatever combination of reasons, a lot of employers think that embedded work is easy or otherwise doesn’t require a large budget. It’s increasingly bizarre to get a well-designed IoT device with a very polished mobile app and web UI, then struggle with hardware factory resets and firmware upgrades because th…

> It’s increasingly bizarre to get a well-designed IoT device with a very polished mobile app and web UI, then struggle with hardware factory resets and firmware upgrades because the embedded side of the product didn’t get the same level of attention.

Why? The issue is that you have to actually ... you know ... PLAN when you have an embedded device.

You can churn the app and the web and the backend infinitely so there is no penalty for doing so. If you take that attitude and apply it to embedded you wind up with an expensive pile of scrap.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#289

Post by pyb »

twic wrote: post #262
pyb wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but C++ developers who haven't worked at hedge funds before wouldn't know it from this advert, and probably won't apply.

Perhaps. I note that position is being advertised by Oxford Knight, a high-touch recruitment firm. Their main modus operandi is to make contact with someone looking for a job, find out what they are looking for, and then suggest particular openings on their books to them; they would have plenty of opportunity to explain about the compensation. I think these public job listings are a bit of a cheap additional thing, a…

As a C++ developer hoping to move back to London, this side of the market is still very opaque.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#290

Post by kabdib »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #49
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

There's lots of C++ programmers out there. But they're bottled up in FAANG, I think. So you have to be able to compete with that. Working at Google is on the whole a lot of C++. Major parts are moving to Go, certainly. But there's absolutely giant code-bases of pretty cleanly written C++ services, and most Googlers are quite proficient in it and there's whole teams at Google that work on improving C++ standards and t…

From what I understand, Google is really about a crippled subset of C++, that people jokingly call "C+-". I ran a C++ shop for 25 years. I used to program in it, but stopped, many moons ago. The new C++ is a huge change from what I knew. I am expecting to see a lot of hate for the language, in this thread. Regardless, it is a very powerful language, and it is not for the faint of heart. I attended a Swift conference,…

C+- is pretty common. I last read the Google C++ guidelines maybe ten years ago. They were pretty much in line with the decisions that other large C++ projects I've worked on had made, like we all encountered the same footguns and language misfeatures.

Every 5-10 years there's a big shakeup and the C++ culture changes, but it takes a long time for things to filter down into the embedded world (for instance).

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