A job description might say C++ at the top but, it will be followed with a page of other requirements and weeks of interviews. They won't hire you unless you are already doing everything.
The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
241–250 of 869 posts
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…
I'm really hoping the salaries for EE type roles start to match software as the grey beards start to retire and talent becomes scarce. We've got a legion of grads going into CS, but EE classes are a fraction of that. Despite that, software roles are often more than double the salary. Any role I go into as an EE/Embedded Systems engineer, I'm more often than not the youngest by 20-30 years. I wonder how the industry i…
Yeah same, I’m an EE camping out in software because of the pay. It’s also just easier work. I would much rather be intellectually challenged coding firmware or embedded work. I didn’t go to school to build web widgets. It’s just EE pays so badly you can’t make the bills. I was getting offered numbers that wouldn’t have afforded my own studio apartment to rent. For EE work. It’s insulting.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#243Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…
Yes, the embedded space pays terrible, and the employers don't seem great on the whole. When I was at Google I got to work on embedded stuff and really liked it; but I was getting a Google salary. When I left Google I pursued IoT and embedded jobs a bit and while I was not expecting Google level compensation at all, I was astounded at what was going on there, pay wise. General software eng back end jobs pay better. T…
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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#244I've done a little bit of C++ in the last couple of years. Compared to pretty much any other common language out there the developer experience is full of pain. I can program C++ but why would I want to?
that should raise the salary on the market, not lower it
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#245I’ll offer a perspective unrelated to pay: It’s a pain to start learning C++, and even after you do, older devs will roast the hell out of your code because your book/tutorials of choice forgot to mention a crucial (in their opinion) feature that you absolutely should/shouldn’t use! Not to mention you’ve only programmed on Mac/Linux so far & windows is totally different, has a different compiler, different ways to in…
> It’s a pain to start learning C++, and even after you do, older devs will roast the hell out of your code because your book/tutorials of choice forgot to mention a crucial
Preach it!
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#246Because Python pays more. Or Javascript. Or Ruby. More demand, more salary. Apart from finance, pay is lower than web languages. And finance is small. Embedded systems programming, that also uses the language, pays 30% less than web jobs from my last job hunting period. Employees may be leaving the embedded space (and C++) for web tech because of this. This is the feeling I get from my local job market (western Europ…
Isn't that nuts? It basically comes down to, if you're further from management, you're not valued.
Oh, you can change the color of the button on my website? 200k/year!
You eke out maximum performance from poorly documented devices and apis using obscure toolchains and custom built linux kernels to run on small chips that are the backbone of our business? 75k/year!
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You may also look into Kernel Programming for a lucrative systems programming career. This is the road I have taken since I started to work professionally, but I yet have to find a lucrative job. I know that I am paid more than microcontroller devs, but less than web devs. The market for kernel developers is not that big either.
That's insane to me... getting into systems programming recently I am well aware of how much harder it is than web dev.
I’ve been in both web and embedded for the last 20 years, and to me web dev “done right” is just as much if not more complicated than embedded, and very similar. In both cases, you have a distributed systems (everything action you take, system wise, is asynchronous, and very uncertain). Debugging is a pain in both cases, because you have only limited access to the system under test (especially in the field), and things like minification / optimizing compilers make it hard to necessarily track bugs.
Embedded has the advantage that you can usually trust your peripherals more (they’re not a user that randomly presses CTRL-R), there is less framework and thirdparty stuff in your way, and the timing constraints are usually better understood. Webdev also suffers from a ton of UX and UI (animations, wizards, complicated workflows, error handling that needs to be error handled that needs to be error handled), which often results in very complex state machines.
In both cases, observability is key, especially for debugging purposes. I use the same patterns in both cases: a lot of state machines and event driven design, because I get “debugging” for free (I just need to log state + events and I can reproduce any scenario).
The big advantage of web, and one that I always have to adjust to when I come back from a period of time in embedded, is that you can YOLO a lot. YOLO to prod, you can always easily revert. YOLO the UI, because you can trust the user to refresh their page or workaround it (your hardware peripheral won’t). YOLO everything because you’ll never really brick stuff. YOLO timing because you usually don’t have hard or even squishy-hard realtime requirements. YOLO behaviour because you can have realtime feedback on how your system is doing, and pushing a new version is only minutes away.
But “web dev” done right, and I really like having something fast, robust, repeatable and observable, is quite the challenge too.
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#248> Hickling pointed to Java, which has long “seemed to be replacing C++ itself,” but hasn't. This is inaccurate. Java completely ate C++'s lunch in the enterprise space back around the turn of the millennium. Java doesn't need to continue to eat into C++'s marketshare in other domains, because it has more than enough mindshare to sustain itself (there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers), and its very exist…
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but now that everything is run in a docker container anyway, doesn't most of Java's appeal of "write once, run anywhere" from the turn of the millennium go away? At this point all it has is garbage collection and a network effect.
Most of enterprise Java jobs in mid/ junior engineering level are similar to old times production assembly line, everything has a Factory or Impl from dependencies. All you have to do is add bunch of methods and connect API's and service bus (of course I'm extremely simplifying it, but) it's not hard to find people who can do that, also it's not hard to get them up to speed for what needs to be done so the churn rate doesn't impact a lot to enterprises which is a big win. In my personal experience I don't think that's possible with C++ so Java may have started with "write once, run anywhere" now its more of glue between longer running actors and constantly changing workforce
Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#249I find it funny that the headline states it as a general trend while it's looking at it only through the prism of "the finance/crypto industry struggles to find C++ developers". Maybe part of the problem is that people don't want to work on your bullshit crypto products, or just on HFT.
Bingo. I've been approached continuously by recruiters looking for finance and/or crypto firms and I won't go anywhere near it. 2x the salary but 10x the stress with type A finance bros yelling at you constantly? Fuck that. Full disclosure: I'm a sucky C++ programmer. If if they're approaching me that means they've chewed up everyone else they can find. So, another red flag.
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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry
#250Well, hire me and train me. I'm a mediocre Python data engineer but self taught myself a bit of C and C++ plus I don't ask for high salary. Something like 90K CAD is good for me.
I came here to say more or less the same.
I have been playing with C++ since 2003 (university years) and still haven't had any opportunity to get hired due to my lack of previous professional experience.
For some reason, my web development experience does not matter for them, nor they care that I do my best to learn from C++ experts we all know.
If they are so scared they cannot find talented C++ developers, it's about time to start training people and let them gain some experience.
Do they actually hire inexperienced people and train them or are they just complaining for years now (?); because quite frankly, I have been reading this since the release of C++11 and still haven't they found their "talented C++ developers"!
I'm here people! Hire me, train me, and prove me wrong with what I have said!