The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry • Hacker News Board

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#211

Post by dspillett » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #159

cortesoft wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is paying the implementers of those languages

> No one is paying the implementers of those languages Lol what? Yes they are. I literally work with a whole team of them! Teams at Goole, Apple, Mozilla, etc etc as well.

OK, few are actively recruiting for people on those projects, as a proportion of the whole job market. A few juicy jobs there and a huge pile of less well paying ones means that any average is going to be low. The existence of those roles is great for those that have/get them, but this doesn't help the wider pool who need to use other tech to get the better wages – a situation that results in fewer newly training in c++ because those outside the pool see the low average.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#212

Post by ativzzz » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #135

mkl95 wrote: post #25

Rust should make the pool of C++ developers decrease exponentially in the coming decades. There's little reason to code a greenfield project in C++ unless it involves leveraging some niche libraries, and those niche libraries will eventually have Rust equivalents.

> There's little reason to code a greenfield project in C++ unless it involves leveraging some niche libraries, Wanting a GUI is not a "niche" concern.

most desktop GUIs nowadays are written in JS because they run in browser or if they are desktop apps it's done via electron

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#213

Post by sqeaky » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #183

flohofwoe wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with the C++ ecosystem, it is actually many vastly different ecosystems mashed together. It's impossible to find a "C++ developer" because there is no agreed upon "one C++ style". It seems what you're looking for is a "C++ developer who likes to write the same C++ style as myself" ;)

> It seems what you're looking for is a "C++ developer who likes to write the same C++ style as myself" ;) No, I'm perfectly content with someone writing C++ in a different style. What I'm not content with is someone who uses old code without a technical reason why. C style arrays, for example, are 100% inferior to std::array. Old loops with indices are maybe 80% (off the cuff guesstimate) inferior to ranged-for. The…

Last time I needed to write `delete` I was either fixing some low level garbage code that was super old or writing a smart pointer for a case not handled by the standard library. Either way it was so long ago that I really can't remember which.

Complaints about delete aren't about part of common modern C++, if they aren't from subject matter experts aren't well structured complaints.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#214

Post by kabdib » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:12 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #201

jack_h wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a previous company our firmware was literally called by a part number. So I would regularly work on the repos 5400-520, 5400-521, 5400-524, 5400-526, etc.

I remember an embedded company I joined; when I asked how they manage releases, the eng manager said, "well, we find an engineer who has a copy of the source code that can successfully build with no errors, copy it off their workstation (debug symbols and all), and send it to the factory to get flashed onto devices." Total clown show.

One large phone manufacturer maintained a room full of PCs, each machine configured to build for one model of phone.

I don't know if they kept backups. I wouldn't take that bet.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#215

Post by joezydeco » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

Ragnarork wrote: post #170

I find it funny that the headline states it as a general trend while it's looking at it only through the prism of "the finance/crypto industry struggles to find C++ developers". Maybe part of the problem is that people don't want to work on your bullshit crypto products, or just on HFT.

Bingo. I've been approached continuously by recruiters looking for finance and/or crypto firms and I won't go anywhere near it.

2x the salary but 10x the stress with type A finance bros yelling at you constantly? Fuck that.

Full disclosure: I'm a sucky C++ programmer. If if they're approaching me that means they've chewed up everyone else they can find. So, another red flag.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#216

Post by int_19h » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

WhiteDawn wrote: post #166

lumost wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having recently learned C++/C.. I don't see why it would be taught as a first language outside of specializations. The gains from C/C++ coding are vastly outweighed by the costs. The reality is that there is no good, agreed upon standard in C++ for how to manage memory... how would you teach this to junior engineers at university?

I'm always conflicted with this. My gut says any new student should start with an interpreted language like Python or JS/TypeScript. As that gets you to running code, and core concepts like variables, loops and if statements in little to no time. However, there is value in learning some of the under the hood concepts such as pointers, structs, memory layout, endianess, pass by reference, compilers etc. I don't think…

C and C++ are still horrible languages even if you want to teach those concepts, because of how many footguns they have. That's why Pascal was so popular as a teaching language, historically speaking - it still has pointers and other stuff you need for manual memory management, but it's much simpler and more regular both syntactically and semantically.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#217

Post by Analemma_ » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:13 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #49

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

There's lots of C++ programmers out there. But they're bottled up in FAANG, I think. So you have to be able to compete with that. Working at Google is on the whole a lot of C++. Major parts are moving to Go, certainly. But there's absolutely giant code-bases of pretty cleanly written C++ services, and most Googlers are quite proficient in it and there's whole teams at Google that work on improving C++ standards and t…

From what I understand, Google is really about a crippled subset of C++, that people jokingly call "C+-". I ran a C++ shop for 25 years. I used to program in it, but stopped, many moons ago. The new C++ is a huge change from what I knew. I am expecting to see a lot of hate for the language, in this thread. Regardless, it is a very powerful language, and it is not for the faint of heart. I attended a Swift conference,…

There are only two types of C++ shops: the ones that use a rigorously-enforced subset of it, and the ones where the codebase is an impenetrable hornet's nest. You must decide on a subset of C++ to use or you'll go insane. Google made some opinionated choices and tradeoffs about which subset to use (as did Microsoft and every other company with a huge C++ codebase), and it's possible to disagree with the specific boundaries they chose, but the mere fact that they chose to do this is unimpeachable.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#218

Post by bearmode » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:14 PM UTC

mooreds wrote: post #64

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #30

There's lots of C++ programmers out there. But they're bottled up in FAANG, I think. So you have to be able to compete with that. Working at Google is on the whole a lot of C++. Major parts are moving to Go, certainly. But there's absolutely giant code-bases of pretty cleanly written C++ services, and most Googlers are quite proficient in it and there's whole teams at Google that work on improving C++ standards and t…

> All of this to say: if you want C++ programmers, you need to pay competitive enough rates to pull them away from there. I'd modify this to say "All of this to say: if you want programmers, you need to pay competitive rates." I worked in real estate for a while (as a software dev) and my boss, who was a realtor, always said "there's no house problem that price can't solve". The labor analogy for me is "there's no la…

UK salaries on the whole are shockingly poor. That's actually a really decent salary here. Devs can start anywhere from £20k to £35k depending on background/where in the country you are.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#219

Post by reachableceo » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

jack_h wrote: post #175

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I find astounding. I wonder how much is just EEs looking at SWE resumes and going "why would I pay that much for this?! writing code isn't that hard" I definitely get that vibe from some of the local hw-eng companies. And they may not be wrong, but.. sorry, that's supply and demand. If I have to go write stupid NodeJS stuff to get paid decently, I guess I'll have to go do that.

I worked at a place once where one of the EEs who wrote firmware told me that algorithms and data structures were pointless because in the end it's just bits in a linear address space in RAM. The industry has basically screwed itself. It's pretty typical for companies to consider embedded/firmware as EE work that is done in the gaps of the hardware schedule. EEs generally make bad programmers which shouldn't be a sur…

I’m interested in your startup idea .

I’m needing todo some highly complex embedded development for my startup in a highly regulated safety critical space.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#220

Post by sunjester » Wed, Nov 02, 2022, 4:15 PM UTC

I personally know c++ and know others who are also well versed in c++. I have a disagreement with the computer industry and won't work in an embedded space. Others won't be hired because of their lifestyle, looks, or past record. The pool isn't running dry it's being drained.