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Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

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Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#131
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cultural differences wouldn't display by leaving of your friend :) there's so much more than "obedience". They do not riot, because they, too, understand, that the capacity of hospitals is quite low comparable to the density of people. The other points: You can't just leave the country without being a foreigner. Chinese people need a Visa for the countries they want to enter. The social score / if you participate…

> And of course, the CCP. They have a high membership rate. You can't study at a university without your membership card. Just in case why you wondered why everybody you meet is a CCP member.

Yes. That's true. But only applies to the universities run by the state (f.e. Jin Hua university, which in fact is the Harvard of China)

But all the other schools run by privates, it's not an big issue.

:)

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#132

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back.

That's why I wonder what China is trying to achieve here. Are they trying to get rid of any foreign dependence under the pretext of health concerns? Turkey's Erdogan did something like that with their stock exchange, i.e. pushing out foreign capital let Erdogan do economically ridiculous things without having international pushback.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#134
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cultural differences wouldn't display by leaving of your friend :) there's so much more than "obedience". They do not riot, because they, too, understand, that the capacity of hospitals is quite low comparable to the density of people. The other points: You can't just leave the country without being a foreigner. Chinese people need a Visa for the countries they want to enter. The social score / if you participate…

> And of course, the CCP. They have a high membership rate. You can't study at a university without your membership card. Just in case why you wondered why everybody you meet is a CCP member.

That's not true.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#135

Every time I see events like this happen, I get extremely skeptical of the idea that China will somehow replace the US as leader of the world. I’m not sure if I’m justified in thinking so, but I just cannot imagine actions like this leading to a creative, innovative culture.

There's no single leader of the world, it's all about local influence. It has always been and probably will be bipolar. Geographical closeness, and trade and cultural/language export have the most impact.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#136

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

> So how long can China keep up with this zero policy as factories move production elsewhere?

The divestment of China has more reasons than just COVID:

- Wages in China have risen to a point where other countries have an advantage because unchecked capitalism always optimizes for "inefficiency", and labor costs are an immense factor for these extremely large operations

- Western sanctions against China have increased, to a point where Western customers cannot be sure they are not the next ones caught in the crossfire

- China itself has drifted away from their weird "communism plus capitalism with some personal liberty" hybrid under Xi Jinping, who has pretty much cleansed the party of everyone not lined up with his ideology over the last years, additionally large investors have been penalized by the Party in various degrees (e.g. Jack Ma). Foreign investors do not like the prospect of their investment being seized at will by the Party as well, and not everyone can afford the level of influence ultra-corporations like BASF or VW have on their local governments to protect them to some degree from such actions.

- China's internal economy is collapsing as well, adding further insecurity for foreign investors

- Many are scared of the possibility of China snacking themselves off a piece or the whole of Taiwan. The US have a long-standing commitment to defend Taiwan, so it is crystal clear that any such attempt would lead to a full-blown war with all associated costs. Unfortunately, as we've seen with Putin, individual idiocy of dictators can be enough to override common sense.

> Lockdown may be a temporary solution. The long-term solution is to maintain better hygiene (masks, washing hands) and get the vaccine without turning into political drama all over Twitter.

Agreed. The problem with China's COVID policy, however, is not antivaxxers on Twitter - it is that the Chinese vaccines are absolute trash compared to Western vaccines, but Xi Jinping can't really backtrack on his decision to only use domestic vaccines because that would imply he, the half-god, has made an error in judgement.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#137

They're still able to have fun there. Rides continue to work :) On the other side, in some parts of Europe there's a discussion to let the infected go to work (even with symptoms and of course, if one's feeling capable of work) - but, still, go to work with other infected/work with infected. I can understand that with so high density in people even one infection can lead to big massive spreads and thus to overloaded…

Here in the Netherlands, it may not be policy, but a large number of people just don't care anymore. People with symptoms like coughing and changing tone of voice are still going to school, work and parties. No one wears masks except for some tourists or other foreigners. When planning an event, not a single moment is thought about COVID.

Broadly similar in CZ - masks aren't anywhere now and I don't anticipate anyone wearing them unless mandated. Even then, I can see a lot of resistance unless they send the police to into public transport and shops to dish out some severe on-the-spot fines. There are also a lot of people I know who have the "oh I have had this weird cough for days, and I feel a bit off ... but it's not covid I did a home test!" followed a few days later with "ok I have covid".

It's a little frustrating, because a bit of painless extra caution now could help avoid something stronger down the line :-/

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#138
post #132

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back. That's why I wonder wh…

> That's why I wonder what China is trying to achieve here.

Most likely explanation: Population/unrest control. If you can randomly shut down parts of the country for the pretend reason of a plague, you can stop unrest from rising. Do shut down small areas randomly for maximum fear and effect.

Remember the Hong Kong protests?

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#139
post #70

COVID has taught me a lot about the cultural differences between the west and China. A friend of mine worked in China for many years, but after several months of being locked in their apartment block and tested every 72 hours they chose to leave China. I honestly couldn't imagine people in the West putting up with that, however I'm yet to fully understand why Chinese people continue to suffer the rules without riot.

AFAIK they need to lock down because their vaccine is shit. It kinda works for the younger people (around 70% efficiency compared to 90++ of the MRNA ones), but it does really bad for the most vulnerable population (80+ year olds). They either lock down or have tens of millions of deaths. Xi said that they will end lockdowns in 2024, the same year they will come out with their MRNA vaccines. I dont know why they aren…

Fosun (a company in the PRC) [1] has a license for manufacturing of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine [2], so I have been puzzled for well over a year as to why it is not deployed. The few channels I have into the PRC keeps telling me that there is also a general unwillingness to vaccinate among the population (but no clear reason as to why). In general, I remain perplexed as to how the PRC can enforce the strictest lockdowns in the world; yet apparently be completely inept at getting the population vaccinated, when countries such as Japan has never had any lockdowns and never mandated vaccinations and are now doing seemingly far better. I just want to know what piece of the puzzle I am missing.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosun_International

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID%...

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#140
post #70

COVID has taught me a lot about the cultural differences between the west and China. A friend of mine worked in China for many years, but after several months of being locked in their apartment block and tested every 72 hours they chose to leave China. I honestly couldn't imagine people in the West putting up with that, however I'm yet to fully understand why Chinese people continue to suffer the rules without riot.

AFAIK they need to lock down because their vaccine is shit. It kinda works for the younger people (around 70% efficiency compared to 90++ of the MRNA ones), but it does really bad for the most vulnerable population (80+ year olds). They either lock down or have tens of millions of deaths. Xi said that they will end lockdowns in 2024, the same year they will come out with their MRNA vaccines. I dont know why they aren…

> I dont know why they arent buying western vaccines though.

2 reasons.

1) Because while they bought MRNA vaccines for themselves (top CCP officials) they want their own local made vaccines to appear good. In China when you have vaccines for kids and such, people who have money pay to use western versions of the vaccines, while those who can't afford use the free local ones. This is mainly due to the issues with fake vaccines in the past.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/23/world/asia/china-vaccines...

2) Xi and the CCP are trying to save face, they cannot admit to the number of cases, deaths, or that zero covid is hurting the economy and failing spectacularly. They have spent 3 years trying to convince the world they were right and that they are the success story while everyone else is a failure.

Internally they have the benefit of controlling 100% of the media so they can control the narrative. But videos and such leak out of China and those can't be scrubbed, they rely on the spreading of their own propaganda on Twitter and Youtube to discredit anyone who talks negatively about China. Any video that shows a door being welded shut with people inside, or a person being put in a box, or dogs being killed in the streets, this is all "western propaganda". It sucks that the CCP giving China a bad name when majority of people there just want to live their lives and are good people.

Xi's project was Xiongan New Area and its an epic failure. Essentially his baby, is slowly being swept under the rug and pretending it doesn't exist. Since 100% of the media in China is state owned and controlled, when things fail like this they just pretend its either going well or it never happened.

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