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As last module docks, China completes its space station

nytimes.com

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Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#281

Post by captainmuon »

jonnybgood wrote: post #235
nimbius wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So for those wondering why no US collaboration, you can blame republican octogenarian Frank Wolf for introducting the Wolf amendment prohibiting any and all NASA collaboration with china that isnt expressly sanctioned by the rest of the geriatrics in congress. he even managed to fuck up the 2013 Kepler Science Conference which resulted in a mass boycott after two chinese scientists were banned. We had every opportuni…

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

I think describing China as one monolithic block in that way is problematic and denies the agency of Chinese people. It is tempting to look at the different political system and lump everything together. You have to distinguish between the government, researchers, and Chinese companies. I know many Chinese researchers who are collaborating fairly, and they have very similar interests and - mixed - incentives as western scientists do.

It is true that Chinese companies do what you described, I think at some point there was even an offical slogan for it. But this is just as much due to the "capitalist" side as to the "communist" side. I'm pretty sure if an American company was behind technologically they would do the same. I recall Tesla poaching battery and car manufacturing specialists for example. Not saying that is great, but it would be naive to assume they would do otherwise.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#282

Post by kelnos »

throwaway4good wrote: post #268
russli1993 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It…

Just imagine all that effort and resources being spent on the International Space Station instead. I wonder were we, the combined humanity, could have been in terms of space exploration, if we just could have been bothered to work together.

I still think there's room for competition, though. Two groups can want to cooperate but have reasonable and valid differences of opinions on how do do things that are large enough to warrant going their separate ways.

And perhaps some of the things China's station can do are just not feasible to tack onto the ISS, at least not without pushing timelines back past what China might consider acceptable.

Not saying that's what's happened here; certainly China's independent efforts here are largely fueled by isolationism and protectionism. And NASA is prohibited by US law from collaborating with China, unless they get prior approval from Congress and the FBI for each collaboration[0]. But I think, as a general sentiment, sometimes competition can be healthy and push the state of the art forward faster.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Amendment

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#283

Post by huhtenberg »

Yiin wrote: post #26
huhtenberg wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The page sits at "Loading" and the console shows "Uncaught (in promise) TypeError: navigator.geolocation is undefined".

Your browser needs to support sharing geolocation.

It's there, but disabled. They had to check for that.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#284

Post by huhtenberg »

modeless wrote: post #108
jason-phillips wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it does not. An uncaught error where you don't catch and gracefully handle errors in your promises is not the users' fault. It's sloppy workmanship.

If you get this error, you intentionally broke your browser, or are using a browser which doesn't support standard, essential functionality. This is not the same thing as declining or blocking geolocation permission, which is supported and does not cause errors. This specific error means you deleted the standard functions that implement the geolocation API, which is a completely different thing. That's fine too, you'…

Get off your high horse, you are wrong here.

> If you get this error, you intentionally broke your browser,

What I did was that I went into browser's preferences and set "geo.enabled" to false.

> Note that the site absolutely requires some form of geolocation to work at all.

Oh, please, I am perfectly capable of finding my village on the globe by hand.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#285

Post by kelnos »

m4jor wrote: post #169
Jayab wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then maybe a little late to sanction their tech to keep them from being peer competitors.

Sanctions do not matter to China. They will just have their nation state backed hackers hack into aerospace and defense contractors and steal their R&D instead. Thats the Chinese way and MO. Anything to further the Chinese economy. They have hacked nearly every F100 they needed to and steal hundreds of billions in IP annually already. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... - https://www.cnb…

To be fair, it's not like the US didn't engage in heavy industrial espionage in Europe during the industrial revolution.

We tend to forget this since the US came into its own as an industrial power generations ago, long before China did. While China's form of government is quite different than most Western governments, in a way that gives them a reputation of being isolationist and secretive, that doesn't mean their path to technological advancement has been any more dishonest than that of other nations.

Put another way, we frown on China's technological espionage so much because we view them as an enemy from a government & "values" perspective, not because "we" have cleaner hands. I personally would prefer that China didn't have all the latest tech capabilities because I don't like the idea of increasing the global influence of authoritarian nations, but if China had a non-isolationist democracy, I might not be so upset about this.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#286

Post by FooBarWidget »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #278
nordsieck wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems. It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 with reuse. It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to SpaceX.

China is not a high-tech nation. There is a thin patina of bling-bling but underneath they have big trouble between corruption and nobody else trusting them. China has lots of money (for now...) so they can throw a lot of resources at the problem. In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.

Your view of China is 10 years behind reality. Corruption was a huge problem, it is still somewhat of a problem, but corruption has reduced significantly and continues to reduce. As for "nobody else trusting them": based on what evidence? Foreign investment into China is at an all-time high. Recent research has shown that while sentiments about China has become much more negative in the west (and its allies such as South Korea and Japan), sentiment in the rest of the world — accounting for 80% of humanity — has become much more positive.

> In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.

I'd like to see some evidence for this huge, unnuanced claim. Of course they have an incentive to look good. So do companies all over the world. But to claim that that's all they do is to ignore the elephant in the room, namely 40 years of growth in prosperity that's unprecedented in human history.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#287

Post by FooBarWidget »

femto wrote: post #200
yrgulation wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve noticed that a lot of news about china’s progress is censored, probably so we dont see how fast they are progressing.

> probably so we dont see how fast they are progressing. The problem is we don't know either way. They could be super advanced, or it could be that they are covering up shortcomings. It feeds into the bigger question of: why do this stuff? If it is to advance human knowledge the results should be shared. It the results aren't being shared it's an exercise in nationalism with limited significance. A similar situation…

What do you mean "we don't know either way"? People can visit China and look around. China also sells technology so you could buy stuff and see how it works.

They might be "covering up their shortcomings" but why would would they do that if that makes them lose customers? You can't sell technology based on hot air. It doesn't make any sense.

What use is technology if you don't widely deploy it and commercialize it? It's not like China isn't one of the biggest trading nations in the world.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#288

Post by thaumasiotes »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #265
lovich wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a few other self antonyms just in English. “Cleave” immediately comes to mind

Inflammable?

Not an autoantonym; that word only has one meaning.

Its problem is that it appears to mean the opposite of what it means, not that it has two contradictory meanings.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#289

Post by thaumasiotes »

tunesmith wrote: post #167
russli1993 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It…

"sanction" is one of the dumbest words on earth. "to give official approval" vs "impose a penalty".

The phenomenon isn't all that rare. Both senses of "sanction" derive from its original sense of "decree" - you can decree that something is allowed, or that it's not allowed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym lists several similar pairs, in which two contradictory senses developed from one older sense. (Along with many more pairs that are the results of different patterns.)

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#290

Post by teh_klev »

jason-phillips wrote: post #86
shadowgovt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that the key isn't populated; it's that it's undefined. FWIW, my browser (Chrome) works on the site even if I choose not to share geolocation; I assume because the API is populated even if it then refrains from sharing. Your point isn't quite wrong but it also isn't quite right; geolocation is supported by every browser listed on Mozilla's documentation ( https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API…

None of the browsers on my iPhone will render this site, W3C compliant or not. In any event, I would never tell my users that it's their fault that my app didn't check the truthiness of the object's property. Seems particularly hostile to one's users and customers, free product or not.

You could of course offer the site's author some friendly advice on how to fix this rather than throwing a tantrum and making accusations about sloppy work and user hostility. Your comments aren't a great look.
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