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NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

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Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#321

Post by joshuamorton »

deltree7 wrote: post #318
joshuamorton wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you can easily make a lot of claims. But I don't think they stack up, hence my request to "prove" it. Also, of course, if you compare me (L5 Swe) and Jeff (L11 senior Google fellow/SVP) or Sanjay, you'll find that the roles we are hired into have vastly different compensation ranges. So even presuming this is true, it actually goes against your overall point that wide ranges for a single posting are justified. I'…

Jeff / Sanjay weren't L11 when they transformed Google. Also that's precisely my point. Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch. SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework. But most SWE are entitled and out-of-touch that they…

> Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch.

Correct, but neither Jeff nor Sanjay did any of those things, and no one did any of those things alone, or from scratch.

> SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework.

IDK, I'm pretty sure there's an automated tool that can create a spanner database for me, so I'm not sure why you think that's that impressive. Less snarkily, you're underestimating the amount of collaboration that happens, even with the impressive engineers. Tellingly, it's never the people extolled as 10 or 100x engineers who claim to be such, usually they echo my sentiments!

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#322

Post by beeboop »

matteotom wrote: post #40

My biggest annoyance with most salary transparency law compliance is companies pretend they'll accept anyone in any location at levels between 1 and 5, resulting in ranges like "$85k" (lowest paid location, level 1) to "$250k" (highest paid location, level 5) - when they're (internally) looking for "level 3 or 4".

I'm fine with this, it helps me not waste my time applying to these places

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#323

Post by game_the0ry »

chrisdbanks wrote: post #300
game_the0ry wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst case is that I say I can't afford you. Actually, the worst case is that they employer lies and after 4 rounds of interviews and maybe take home assignments, the employer says "actually this job will be paying much less." (this has happened to me once, it wastes everyones' time)

Yes, so why did they do it? I guess it depends on the type of job and company. In this case it sounds like they didn't have the budget or wisdom to hire a high performer but we're trying to net one through trickery. There will always be bad actors. A salary range wouldn't stop this as they could do the same by baiting you at the top of the range and switching to the lower end.

> Yes, so why did they do it?

They were trying to rip me off by paying me less than I was earning at the time. The ceo of the company tried to sell me hard on why I shouldn't let the low offer hold me back and how the equity comp I was going to get would more than make for it. That was 4 years ago and the company is still not publicly traded.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#324

Post by deltree7 »

joshuamorton wrote: post #321
deltree7 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jeff / Sanjay weren't L11 when they transformed Google. Also that's precisely my point. Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch. SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework. But most SWE are entitled and out-of-touch that they…

> Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch. Correct, but neither Jeff nor Sanjay did any of those things, and no one did any of those things alone , or from scratch . > SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework. IDK, I'm pret…

You are just digging your hole deeper and deeper dude

https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#325

Post by joshuamorton »

deltree7 wrote: post #324
joshuamorton wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even though you are an L5, you'll never design an Android or a Spanner or a Dremel system or a Self-Driving System from scratch. Correct, but neither Jeff nor Sanjay did any of those things, and no one did any of those things alone , or from scratch . > SWEs who create Spanner Databases are 1000x more valuable to companies than someone who adds tiny features using a well-defined process and framework. IDK, I'm pret…

You are just digging your hole deeper and deeper dude https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

MapReduce is neither Spanner nor Dremel nor Android nor a Self-Driving system. I'm not sure what your point is.

And the paper you cite notes a number of other people in the acknowledgements who were critical both to refining the design, and to the infrastructure that MR was built atop, so even in the case of something that Jeff and Sanjay did do, they neither did it "alone", nor "from scratch", despite yes, being the two primary designers and developers of the initial implementation of MR.

If you have a point you're trying to make, make it explicitly.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#326

Post by deltree7 »

joshuamorton wrote: post #325
deltree7 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just digging your hole deeper and deeper dude https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

MapReduce is neither Spanner nor Dremel nor Android nor a Self-Driving system. I'm not sure what your point is. And the paper you cite notes a number of other people in the acknowledgements who were critical both to refining the design, and to the infrastructure that MR was built atop, so even in the case of something that Jeff and Sanjay did do, they neither did it "alone", nor "from scratch", despite yes, being the…

Geez, I'm sorry dude, you are really clueless about 10x programming.

MapReduce was a revolutionary paper which allowed Google to scale using cheap hard-drives and compute instead of paying Oracle licenses. If you can't understand the impact of that paper during early days of Google to what it became, I'm flabbergasted by your L5 claim.

You are clearly a 1x, 9-5, LeetCode, TC chasing programmer and not Jeff.

I'll pay Jeff/Sanjay/Linus/Andy Rubin/Lewandosky 20x the salary I'd pay you. it's as simple as that

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#327

Post by joshuamorton »

deltree7 wrote: post #326
joshuamorton wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MapReduce is neither Spanner nor Dremel nor Android nor a Self-Driving system. I'm not sure what your point is. And the paper you cite notes a number of other people in the acknowledgements who were critical both to refining the design, and to the infrastructure that MR was built atop, so even in the case of something that Jeff and Sanjay did do, they neither did it "alone", nor "from scratch", despite yes, being the…

Geez, I'm sorry dude, you are really clueless about 10x programming. MapReduce was a revolutionary paper which allowed Google to scale using cheap hard-drives and compute instead of paying Oracle licenses. If you can't understand the impact of that paper during early days of Google to what it became, I'm flabbergasted by your L5 claim. You are clearly a 1x, 9-5, LeetCode, TC chasing programmer and not Jeff. I'll pay…

> you are really clueless about 10x programming.

It's not particularly constructive to presume that someone who disagrees with you is "clueless". Just to reiterate, I think that it is absolutely true that some people have extremely high value in organizations. The obvious question is whether they have extremely high value above replacement. You've yet to present any so called "proof" of this.

> MapReduce was a revolutionary paper which allowed Google to scale using cheap hard-drives and compute instead of paying Oracle licenses. If you can't understand the impact of that paper during early days of Google to what it became

Sure. I do, however fail to see how this relates to whatever broader point you are trying to make, which still eludes me.

> You are clearly a 1x, 9-5, LeetCode, TC chasing programmer and not Jeff.

At least two of these are untrue, but yes, I'm proud to maintain work-life balance? I guess you got me.

> I'll pay Jeff/Sanjay/Linus/Andy Rubin/Lewandosky 20x the salary I'd pay you.

Ah, I'm being trolled.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#328

Post by chrisdbanks »

spopejoy wrote: post #320
chrisdbanks wrote: post #94

As an employer, I am reticent to name a salary range because the fact is that the return on investment of employees is not normally distributed; it follows a power law where the top people return many times the amount of an average person. This may be because of connections, experience, intelligence, or a mixture. When I recruit I always want to hire a top person for whom I'm happy to pay 50% more than an average per…

Even if your argument is sound, as an employer, it is in your rational self-interest to oppose this regulation for all the _other_ unfair advantages it gives you. Thus your argument is already suspect because apparently, you're at a minimum non-committal about the unfair parts and want to hold on to this presumably more fair advantage, as well. However, even the case you mention is unfair too. You're basically preser…

Which other unfair advantages? Another way to look at this is that the employee is selling the employer a service. When you buy something from a shop do you expect to name your price, or do you expect see a price label? In that case the seller almost always names their price first. Do you like going into shops where their are no prices listed?

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#329

Post by throwaway292939 »

chrisdbanks wrote: post #328
spopejoy wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if your argument is sound, as an employer, it is in your rational self-interest to oppose this regulation for all the _other_ unfair advantages it gives you. Thus your argument is already suspect because apparently, you're at a minimum non-committal about the unfair parts and want to hold on to this presumably more fair advantage, as well. However, even the case you mention is unfair too. You're basically preser…

Which other unfair advantages? Another way to look at this is that the employee is selling the employer a service. When you buy something from a shop do you expect to name your price, or do you expect see a price label? In that case the seller almost always names their price first. Do you like going into shops where their are no prices listed?

Shops are just one model of transacting.

But there are plenty of cases where sellers don't list their price and they have worked fine - think about the auction model for one.

As an aside.. when do we use auctions? We don't use it for commodity items (no sense in buying a pack of candy in auctions).

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#330

Post by PCMDAVE »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Oh, I see you drank the Kool-Aid all the way down...good for you!
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