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Systemd 252

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Re: Systemd 252

#181

Post by cies »

gorgoiler wrote: post #65

It feels like the time is ripe for something simpler and more modern to replace* systemd. The timing of this release coincides with me being bitten with yet another bug** on the weekend. How long until “Systemd: The Good Parts”? *The most trivial new name would be système which would at least be in keeping with the French naming. **In Debian stable if you create a new user, ssh in as that user, logout, then delete th…

I expect there will be a system that is not necessarily less complex (as what systemd does IS quite complex); but is more:

* safe (uses Rust with unsafe)

* modular (systemd is pretty all-or-nothing)

* open access (less RedHat dominated)

Probably it will be using some of the same standards as systemd or at lease be BW compatible to some extend. Once Debian picks it up, it's game over systemd.

Re: Systemd 252

#182

Post by Maursault »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #142
lakomen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arrogance of Lennart has something to do with it. The way he tends to disregard real bugs as not a bug, since he and his production are perfect and always right. Numerous cases of that. Then the security aspect of a jack of all trades process running as one that controls every other process. Reading logs after a panic and rebooting to check them is a pain in the ass without journald on the chrooting system, readi…

> There are many reasons to not like systemd and the creator, who incidently after leaving the GNU/Linux is now working for the same company that sought to destroy it, Microsoft. I only learned about that a few days ago, here on HN (some thread or some old comment). It is completely insane and gives lots of fuel to the systemd haters. I do run both Debian (systemd) and Devuan (a Debian fork with all the systemd stuff…

> and there should be Linux distros packaged without systemd.

systemd should be an optional package on all distros. Shoving it down throats is one of the valid major criticisms. What should have happened instead is systemd was optional on Debian at setup and Debian was forked to include it by default. It is simply backwards that Debian needed to be forked for purity. Duvuan shouldn't need to exist, but it very much does.

The entire ideology of openness and freedom has been turned on its head. Instead of "what is best for everyone is good enough for me," has become with entitlement "what is best for me is good enough for everyone." Maybe you like the way you do things, but would any here really insist on forcing everyone else to use your methods and no others?

systemd, among other valid criticisms, is unmistakably fascist. For anyone but parent, don't just be thin-skinned and downvote my comment because you have allowed yourself to be insulted. Be courageous and disagree with me if you can. How is systemd not fascist?

Re: Systemd 252

#183

Post by b112 »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #142
lakomen wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arrogance of Lennart has something to do with it. The way he tends to disregard real bugs as not a bug, since he and his production are perfect and always right. Numerous cases of that. Then the security aspect of a jack of all trades process running as one that controls every other process. Reading logs after a panic and rebooting to check them is a pain in the ass without journald on the chrooting system, readi…

> There are many reasons to not like systemd and the creator, who incidently after leaving the GNU/Linux is now working for the same company that sought to destroy it, Microsoft. I only learned about that a few days ago, here on HN (some thread or some old comment). It is completely insane and gives lots of fuel to the systemd haters. I do run both Debian (systemd) and Devuan (a Debian fork with all the systemd stuff…

And systemd proponents shouldn't go out of their way to try to prevent non systemd Linux from existing.

All the changes to gnome, which depended 100% upon systemd at the time, were pushed by redhat, gnome contributers.

This one of the biggest reasons given, for getting systemd into debian at the time.

When systemd was being pushed origionally, fast boot times, predictable names, and a few other things were big reasons. Yet debian already had parallel init booting, and already had predictable interface names.

Systemd has done almost nothing for debian, and has many drawbacks, as you say.

Systemd was a redhat solution, to redhat issues, and redhat used its power in the community to force it through.

There were a lot of outright lies, politics, and more at implementation time. And you're right, part of it was redhat wanting to force systemd, and no other.

Re: Systemd 252

#184

Post by mnutt »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #12

I love systemd for deploying Golang, especially the security features, that systemd can own the TCP port for zero downtime deployments of the application and restarts of a fail-fast application. It kind of replaced Docker (dockerd) which I've used with deploying Scala and TS.

It's great, you can have it launch multiple processes on the same port using SO_REUSEPORT. Normally it'd be a bit of a pain to health check multiple processes running on the same port without some other machinery since it is possible to get into a state where all but one process is hung. Systemd watchdog will provide your service with a socket and expect updates on a regular interval or else it will consider your service dead. This socket is also very handy for service startup, to have your process just notify systemd it is ready rather than having to poll to see if your process is listening yet.

Re: Systemd 252

#185

Post by b112 »

atonse wrote: post #171
TacticalCoder wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are many reasons to not like systemd and the creator, who incidently after leaving the GNU/Linux is now working for the same company that sought to destroy it, Microsoft. I only learned about that a few days ago, here on HN (some thread or some old comment). It is completely insane and gives lots of fuel to the systemd haters. I do run both Debian (systemd) and Devuan (a Debian fork with all the systemd stuff…

> It is completely insane and gives lots of fuel to the systemd haters. Sorry, what exactly is the issue with a bunch of Linux maintainers working for Microsoft? Is there still some sort of collective adjustment issue with Microsoft being a major backer of Linux now? If the maintainers themselves (people who have dedicated their lives to progressing Linux) are ok with it, why does anyone else have an issue? And what…

And what kind of fuel would it add? That systemd has corporate backers?

Systemd was 100% created by redhat, so no, corporate backers aren't the problem.

The real problem is that Microsoft has historically tried to destroy linux, and beyond that, has a huge history of FUD and embrace and extinguish.

Many in the OSS community consider Microsoft to be pure evil.

And if their historical behaviour is any indication, nothing they do with/for Linux will turn out well, or good for the community.

Re: Systemd 252

#186

Post by marcosdumay »

dsr_ wrote: post #145
captainmuon wrote: post #97

About removing support for what they call split-usr and unmerged-usr: Why does a init system and daemon manager even need suppport for a certain directory layout, shouldn't it be agnostic? Having a separate usr-space saved my bacon in the past a couple of times. The thing I dislike most about Systemd is that it leads to homogenisation, where to me, running Linux is about choice.

I believe that the end goal of systemd is to end Linux distributions as anything other than a flavor. This will not work completely, but it may work well enough that non-systemd linux will be considered an unusual eccentricity.

Until some eccentricity works well enough that everybody adopts it.

Then it's only a matter of barriers and lock-in... And systemd imposes a lot of those.

Re: Systemd 252

#187

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

rfmoz wrote: post #144
fullstop wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

launchd or perhaps, more likely, upstartd.

UpstartD was the good alternative offered by Canonical, but Redhat finally won with their SystemD.

upstart was terrible. I wanted upstart to win, I invested a ton of personal and professional energy into making it win, and it was all a terrible mistake. The design was simply backwards. systemd was right from the start.

Re: Systemd 252

#188

Post by b112 »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #12

I love systemd for deploying Golang, especially the security features, that systemd can own the TCP port for zero downtime deployments of the application and restarts of a fail-fast application. It kind of replaced Docker (dockerd) which I've used with deploying Scala and TS.

own the TCP port for zero downtime deployments of the

It's not zero downtime, if the app isn't reaponding. And any infra that cares about uptime, has redundant instances.

This feature is, IMO, a feel good feature.

Re: Systemd 252

#189

Post by [deleted] »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #99
HNDV wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>thought that systemd was generally hated? If it was generally hated there would be a lot more support for the distros that don't have systemd. There isn't. Except for alpine, all of them are extremely niche, half of them are dead, the other half barely have enough people to stick around for a release a year. Even alpine is kinda niche, it's mostly used as a way to make lightweight docker containers, rather than as a…

I think that is an overstatement. I use systemd but there is legitimate criticism and even a questionable conflict of interest in the creator now working for the competition. People working against the best interest of the community is a real threat that shouldn't simply be ignored. However, so far systemd has worked out alright for me so I can't complain too much but the documentation is still lacking in certain are…

[deleted]

Re: Systemd 252

#190

Post by ohCh6zos »

shrubble wrote: post #13

People who want to use it can use it. I am thankful for the non-systemd distributions, which are listed at https://nosystemd.org ; just scroll down to the list if you want to skip the advocacy.

I have absolutely fallen in love with FreeBSD after Debian and Arch stopped being what I wanted.

It feels closer to what I wanted than a proper Linux.

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