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Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

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Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#31

Post by pjmlp »

belltaco wrote: post #18

I really enjoyed the post till this: > Whilst I enjoy this kind of tinkering, it was disappointing that a "Dev Kit", built for developers can neither boot Linux, nor enable a custom Linux Kernel for WSL2. > What's that I hear Hacker News and Reddit cry? "It's a Dev Kit for Windows, you moron!" That may be the case, but Microsoft "Loves Linux", and clearly has worked hard to make WSL2 available out of the box on these…

If something says it is for developers, does it have to revolve around UNIX clones as if there aren't any other kind of developers?

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#32

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #29
bayindirh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ARM platform sold by Microsoft. It's supporting Windows alright, but it's a hardware platform at the end of the day. Dev kits are unlimited/unlocked machines by historical definition. They should allow experimentation. Locking Linux behind WSL2 is Microsoft's dream, and being oblivious about it won't help us in the future. People get crazy when people point out that Microsoft is deprecating it's 3rd party C…

It is a platform for Windows Developers .

Nope. It’s just an ARM PC, sold by Microsoft. Not different from a Dell desktop PC, or anything in the same category which comes with Windows pre installed.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#33

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #32
pjmlp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a platform for Windows Developers .

Nope. It’s just an ARM PC, sold by Microsoft. Not different from a Dell desktop PC, or anything in the same category which comes with Windows pre installed.

That is your interpretation, not Microsoft's.

"Windows Dev Kit 2023 (code name “Project Volterra”) is the latest Arm device built for Windows developers with a Neural Processing Unit (NPU) that provides best-in-class AI computing capacity, multiple ports, and a stackable design for desktops and rack deployment. Purpose-built with everything you need to develop, debug, and test native Windows apps for Arm."

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/dev-kit

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#34

Post by bayindirh »

pjmlp wrote: post #33
bayindirh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. It’s just an ARM PC, sold by Microsoft. Not different from a Dell desktop PC, or anything in the same category which comes with Windows pre installed.

That is your interpretation, not Microsoft's. "Windows Dev Kit 2023 (code name “Project Volterra”) is the latest Arm device built for Windows developers with a Neural Processing Unit (NPU) that provides best-in-class AI computing capacity, multiple ports, and a stackable design for desktops and rack deployment. Purpose-built with everything you need to develop, debug, and test native Windows apps for Arm." https://le…

And the text you quoted is Microsoft's interpretation (or marketing text) of the hardware they're selling.

We repurpose many purpose built things for other ends. People called as hackers for doing that back in the day, and we applauded them.

Why the change now?

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#35

Post by bayindirh »

trelane wrote: post #25
bayindirh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have the option of buying Linux preinstalled. It would be nice if we didn't collectively squander the opportunity. Of course you're right, but all hardware is certified for Windows at the design stage, and only a subset (EliteBook, ThinkPad, XPS, etc.) is designed and verified against Linux kernel. Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able…

I don't think it's true that all hardware is certified for Windows. Yes, most hardware is not designed nor verified for running against Linux. Most hardware doesn't run OSX either. The solution, as with Mac, is to only buy systems with Linux pre-installed and supported. > Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able to function on these systems. Ye…

I meant all "PC" hardware, sorry for being vague. Also, macOS has an official hardware partner.

All in all, we're on the same page. The rest is being pedantic about word semantics. :)

> The solution, as with Mac, is to only buy systems with Linux pre-installed and supported.

Yes!

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#37

Post by aseipp »

adrian_b wrote: post #16
zinekeller wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that there's something weird that trips the Linux kernel, but at least it's possible to boot third-party OSes.

It is very good that it is possible to boot non-Windows OSes. Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display. There was not long ago a presentation from Lenovo about the support of Linux on their products. They make a laptop with the same Qualcomm chip. Afte…

Freedreno already has OGL 4.3 for supported devices and I believe people have confirmed it's working on the ThinkPad X13s, so graphics isn't that far off. Wifi I think works as well by now with the latest kernels/dbt, but other stuff like power management or audio I don't know about. The nice little NPU is almost certainly never going to go anywhere either (I know of no reasonably usable NPU with any open source linux driver.)

Honestly the reality is that people will still buy this for Linux usage, even if some of the peripheral support is bad, because the options for UEFI-capable "desktop class" ARMv8 is still pretty bad. You can't buy anything with reasonable upstream support that is ARMv8.2+ capable, and almost no easy-acquirable ARMv8.2+ silicon exists even without upstream support -- except Apple, of course. Maybe the best alternative I know of is those NXP Layerscape processors. But this comes stacked with RAM and NVMe out of the box, compared to those.

These things are relatively fast, completely integrated OOTB, and can fit under your desk and so it'll still be a hit because it ticks all those boxes even if like, the camera doesn't work. It's honestly a very good price for an all-in-one CI machine that you could throw in a closet or whatever.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#38

Post by pjmlp »

bayindirh wrote: post #34
pjmlp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is your interpretation, not Microsoft's. "Windows Dev Kit 2023 (code name “Project Volterra”) is the latest Arm device built for Windows developers with a Neural Processing Unit (NPU) that provides best-in-class AI computing capacity, multiple ports, and a stackable design for desktops and rack deployment. Purpose-built with everything you need to develop, debug, and test native Windows apps for Arm." https://le…

And the text you quoted is Microsoft's interpretation (or marketing text) of the hardware they're selling. We repurpose many purpose built things for other ends. People called as hackers for doing that back in the day, and we applauded them. Why the change now?

For starters those hackers can start by supporting OEMs that care about doing business selling hardware with Linux, develop the next PI clone with RISC-V or something.

Not every developer is a UNIX developer, and not every piece of hardware has to run a POSIX clone.

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#39

Post by trelane »

bayindirh wrote: post #35
trelane wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's true that all hardware is certified for Windows. Yes, most hardware is not designed nor verified for running against Linux. Most hardware doesn't run OSX either. The solution, as with Mac, is to only buy systems with Linux pre-installed and supported. > Kernel needs to workaround a great deal of cut corners or shenanigans (incomplete ACPI tables, anyone?) to be able to function on these systems. Ye…

I meant all "PC" hardware, sorry for being vague. Also, macOS has an official hardware partner. All in all, we're on the same page. The rest is being pedantic about word semantics. :) > The solution, as with Mac, is to only buy systems with Linux pre-installed and supported. Yes!

Agreed. Right on then. Cheers! :)

Re: Attempting Linux on Microsoft Dev Kit 2023

#40

Post by kcb »

zinekeller wrote: post #22
adrian_b wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very good that it is possible to boot non-Windows OSes. Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display. There was not long ago a presentation from Lenovo about the support of Linux on their products. They make a laptop with the same Qualcomm chip. Afte…

> Nevertheless, using this computer will require a lot of reverse-engineering work for various devices, e.g. the GPU, the WiFi interface and many others. For now, OpenBSD can use only a frame buffer for display Unfortunately you're right, reverse-engineering Adreno would take monumental effort.

Nope. OpenGL, Vulkan, OpenGL ES is all already there.
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