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Systemd 252

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Re: Systemd 252

#151

Post by cultofmetatron »

gizzlon wrote: post #138
cultofmetatron wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

alpine linux is a minimalist distro intended for running a single process within a container. I guarantee the base OS the container is running on us running systemD.

No: "Alpine Linux is an independent, non-commercial, general purpose Linux distribution designed for power users who appreciate security, simplicity and resource efficiency. "

who out there is using alpine as their daily driver desktop? the only time I've ever seen it used is as the base image for docker containers precisely because its so minimal (ie: lower attack surface area)

Re: Systemd 252

#152

Post by lmz »

tyingq wrote: post #130
lmz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that just seems to show that if you want to resolve lxd domains (hostnames?), you need to inform systemd-resolved to ask lxd for those domains, which is... sensible? > you should notify resolved of the domains that LXD can resolve You'd have the same issues if you replaced systemd-resolved with e.g. dnsmasq. Split DNS always needs resolver configuration.

I think it's just someone unhappy that they used to be able to edit resolve.conf before systemd-resolved took it over. I recall being annoyed about it as well, but that was some time ago.

It was always a contended file, before systemd e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf names two software packages (choose one) to manage that file.

Re: Systemd 252

#153

Post by panzi »

xdfgh1112 wrote: post #67
KingOfCoders wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it astonishing? I've been using Linux pre-Slackware with downloading boot.tgz and root.tgz on two floppy drives, wrestled with M4 and sendmail, have been writing internet applications for 35+ years but never used a Linux daemon to manage my applications. You're never too old to learn I guess.

I use systemd at work and I have finally learned to love it. Still don't like binary logs but the timers, watchdog and sandboxing features are wonderful.

I configurated the systemd services at work to redirect the services' output to syslog.

Re: Systemd 252

#154

Post by blueflow »

HNDV wrote: post #74
stevefan1999 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I almost never saw anyone using Alpine as the infrastructural distro for their, say like desktop environment akin to Manjaro and Fedora. Without systemd, bootstrapping a complicated desktop environment would be a hot mess. Well, maybe you would say Alpine is not intented to run heavyweight stuff like that and is mostly focused on security and containers. That's exactly what Alpine is, the OpenBSD of Linux distros…

>never saw anyone using Alpine as the infrastructural distro for their, say like desktop environment akin to Manjaro and Fedora Alpine runs musl libc. This makes it buggy with all sorts of software that rely on glibc-isms, that makes it incompatible with proprietary drivers like NVIDIA and make it harder to run proprietary/binary software on the userland. musl is developed by people with that sort of break-everything…

Bad argument, glibc and musl are not always compatible, and you can use that as argument against either. When it comes to standards, musl is actually the more conformant one.

The glibc 2.26 release with the ucontext breakages made me stick with musl.

Plus, when i did multiarch support in Alpine later, i found that LDSO paths for musl are much more systematically and don't have name collisions like glibc.

Re: Systemd 252

#155

Post by tyingq »

lmz wrote: post #152
tyingq wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just someone unhappy that they used to be able to edit resolve.conf before systemd-resolved took it over. I recall being annoyed about it as well, but that was some time ago.

It was always a contended file, before systemd e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/resolv.conf names two software packages (choose one) to manage that file.

>It was always a contended file

For people using dhcp, yes. The surprise of systemd-resolved was it taking over the file on a typical server that didn't use dhcp.

Re: Systemd 252

#156

Post by VLM »

captainmuon wrote: post #97

About removing support for what they call split-usr and unmerged-usr: Why does a init system and daemon manager even need suppport for a certain directory layout, shouldn't it be agnostic? Having a separate usr-space saved my bacon in the past a couple of times. The thing I dislike most about Systemd is that it leads to homogenisation, where to me, running Linux is about choice.

No post body was provided.

Re: Systemd 252

#157

Post by denton-scratch »

panick21_ wrote: post #33
plaguepilled wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say it really depends on the context! Some reasons systemd is bad: - Its a "big" for small docker containers (which is part of why a lot of people like Alpine Linux). - It produces binary logs, which might not work with your workflow and is a kind of vendor lock-in if you don't script a binary-to-text script. - the binaries are all a lot bigger in terms if SLOC and in terms of storage space than the solutions…

You can easily have it not produce binary logs. Other software depending on Systemd isn't really Systemd responsibility. Its not systemd fault that almost nobody uses OpenRC.

> You can easily have it not produce binary logs.

How do you do that? If you want non-binary logs, you can have journald tee log records to rsyslog; but the canonical log is still the binary log. Have I missed something?

Re: Systemd 252

#158

Post by denton-scratch »

gupnop wrote: post #46
plaguepilled wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its a bit of systemd's issue since it's attempting to cover a large range of functionality. The way it provides that functionality is important. Re: the binary logs - true, but the core point that its not text by default is still a (small) issue IMO. Not ideal default behaviour.

There are solid technical reasons for systemd's binary logging. The nice thing about its binary log format is that it's organised by fields which are indexed for quicker searching and filtering. It's much easier and faster to analyse these logs than the traditional text-based ones. Also, having journald authenticate the process that is sending it log entries, and the log sealing capability, are two features that can…

Rsyslog can be configured with a database backend, if you want to index the log fields.

Re: Systemd 252

#159

Post by dsr_ »

tyingq wrote: post #130
lmz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that just seems to show that if you want to resolve lxd domains (hostnames?), you need to inform systemd-resolved to ask lxd for those domains, which is... sensible? > you should notify resolved of the domains that LXD can resolve You'd have the same issues if you replaced systemd-resolved with e.g. dnsmasq. Split DNS always needs resolver configuration.

I think it's just someone unhappy that they used to be able to edit resolve.conf before systemd-resolved took it over. I recall being annoyed about it as well, but that was some time ago.

Other direction: people used to feel secure that nothing was going to edit resolv.conf away from what they set up.

Re: Systemd 252

#160

Post by how_gauche »

tux3 wrote: post #100
europeanguy wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Linux expert, but I thought that systemd was generally hated?

A couple years ago, absolutely. To decide whether to generally hate systemd, and with what intensity, you should follow a curve that decreases proportionally with how long ago the change was made, and that starts as high as the multiplication of how much churn it causes times how old the thing it replaced was, all of which is of course multiplied again against the buggyness curve When pipewire replaced pulse, despite…

Pipewire broke me lots of times during its development and rollout, and that's okay, because new software has bugs and in some of my other use cases "hey it's a lot better than Jack". What I'm not going to do is carry a grudge against the maintainer for decades?

I've been using Linux since Slackware installed from a pile of floppy disks. I'm extremely happy with systemd (desktop and server) and view it as one of the most important UX advancements ever made in the Linux sysadmin space. It replaced a smorgasbord of broken nonsense with a unified and thoughtful system that is objectively superior to what it replaced. I suspect a lot of the extreme reaction to systemd is not just resistance to change, but based on an emotional attachment to the rag-tag heterogeneity it made obsolete.

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