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Systemd 252

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Re: Systemd 252

#141

Post by traverseda »

lrvick wrote: post #133
traverseda wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean have you actually used the alternatives? I find most of the people with that opinion are young pups who jumped on the linux train after most of the systemd bugs have been ironed out, but who still have zero experience with the alternatives.

I have used all the alternatives, and written my own init systems from 0. Systemd is really well designed and makes Linux workstation use predictable and more secure across distros in numerous ways. You can have any service you want now, even xorg/ wayland, as an unprivileged user. It basically removes all need to use root if used correctly. Systemd however is however not designed for server use, but neither is OpenR…

I mean it's pretty hard to debate the merits of systemd as a server init system when you think we should all be using come kind of containerization system :p

Re: Systemd 252

#142

Post by TacticalCoder »

lakomen wrote: post #86
stevefan1999 wrote: post #71

I just never get why people always flame on systemd. Sure, it's kinda bloated in the sense that it is "battery included" just like Python, but the intention to have a stable init with great system and service management is very good from both a DevOps and Sysadmin perspective. It is at least much better than writing your adhoc init.d script that may not guarantee to run on other Linux distros.

The arrogance of Lennart has something to do with it. The way he tends to disregard real bugs as not a bug, since he and his production are perfect and always right. Numerous cases of that. Then the security aspect of a jack of all trades process running as one that controls every other process. Reading logs after a panic and rebooting to check them is a pain in the ass without journald on the chrooting system, readi…

> There are many reasons to not like systemd and the creator, who incidently after leaving the GNU/Linux is now working for the same company that sought to destroy it, Microsoft.

I only learned about that a few days ago, here on HN (some thread or some old comment).

It is completely insane and gives lots of fuel to the systemd haters.

I do run both Debian (systemd) and Devuan (a Debian fork with all the systemd stuff removed). I use Devuan on my main desktop PC and I've got exactly zero problem.

That's the thing: many "sell" systemd as some mandatory machinery but it simply ain't. Ultra-light containers (like Alpine-based ones) run fine (and faster) without systemd. Desktops do run fine without systemd (I'm running Devuan on my workstation and Debian on my laptop: it's basically the same experience). For certain types of servers I can understand some see benefits in running systemd.

Neither IBM / Red Hat nor Microsoft should be those setting the terms of what is or is not an acceptable "PID 1" for Linux.

The day Linux becomes "systemd Linux" is the day I'll switch to a BSD.

I don't mind that systemd exists as long as people still have the choice to run a non-systemd Linux. The kernel should be orthogonal to systemd and there should be Linux distros packaged without systemd.

And systemd proponents shouldn't go out of their way to try to prevent non systemd Linux from existing.

Re: Systemd 252

#143

Post by fullstop »

tapoxi wrote: post #118
boncho wrote: post #2

Systemd is without doubt one of the most important items of software on a modern Linux today, except perhaps for the Linux kernel itself. It turned the mess of shell scripts and other crap into the rock-solid, foundational system services layer we enjoy nowadays. If we do ever get the year of the Linux Desktop, we will have to thank the authors of systemd for giving us a bedrock of delight to build upon.

I'd argue the success of the Steam Deck is evidence of the Linux desktop's maturity. The normal game UI is just another Wayland session, and it's a fully functional PC running Arch Linux. KDE is installed and easily accessible.

It's also worth mentioning that the Steam Deck uses systemd as well.

Re: Systemd 252

#144

Post by rfmoz »

fullstop wrote: post #136
rfmoz wrote: post #131

SystemD fundation basement was a Linux implementation of the MacOS LaunchD. It was a step forward over the traditional init managers, but in any case disruptible over something new, because an equivalent design was running on Apple devices time before. http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html

launchd or perhaps, more likely, upstartd.

UpstartD was the good alternative offered by Canonical, but Redhat finally won with their SystemD.

Re: Systemd 252

#145

Post by dsr_ »

captainmuon wrote: post #97

About removing support for what they call split-usr and unmerged-usr: Why does a init system and daemon manager even need suppport for a certain directory layout, shouldn't it be agnostic? Having a separate usr-space saved my bacon in the past a couple of times. The thing I dislike most about Systemd is that it leads to homogenisation, where to me, running Linux is about choice.

I believe that the end goal of systemd is to end Linux distributions as anything other than a flavor.

This will not work completely, but it may work well enough that non-systemd linux will be considered an unusual eccentricity.

Re: Systemd 252

#146

Post by McDyver »

phoronixrly wrote: post #126
HeckFeck wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened for PulseAudio, perhaps something compatible but leaner can emerge for systemd.

It happened to Pulse after the project stopped being a moving target. Just look at the changelog of this systemd release.

Just because the project is moving, doesn't mean it's moving in the right direction.

What I like about linux in general, is that there are lots of small tools, with a reduced and specific scope, that do their job well. Systemd seems to want to do and control everything.

Re: Systemd 252

#147

Post by legulere »

That's a pretty long list of small changes, but nothing really sticks out. I don't really see any ground of discussion about this.

Re: Systemd 252

#148

Post by rfmoz »

lakomen wrote: post #86
stevefan1999 wrote: post #71

I just never get why people always flame on systemd. Sure, it's kinda bloated in the sense that it is "battery included" just like Python, but the intention to have a stable init with great system and service management is very good from both a DevOps and Sysadmin perspective. It is at least much better than writing your adhoc init.d script that may not guarantee to run on other Linux distros.

The arrogance of Lennart has something to do with it. The way he tends to disregard real bugs as not a bug, since he and his production are perfect and always right. Numerous cases of that. Then the security aspect of a jack of all trades process running as one that controls every other process. Reading logs after a panic and rebooting to check them is a pain in the ass without journald on the chrooting system, readi…

About the bugs, the Github have 1.8k issues open.

That makes me think, is there a way to know what are the projects with more open issues on Github?

Re: Systemd 252

#149

Post by denton-scratch »

lakomen wrote: post #86
stevefan1999 wrote: post #71

I just never get why people always flame on systemd. Sure, it's kinda bloated in the sense that it is "battery included" just like Python, but the intention to have a stable init with great system and service management is very good from both a DevOps and Sysadmin perspective. It is at least much better than writing your adhoc init.d script that may not guarantee to run on other Linux distros.

The arrogance of Lennart has something to do with it. The way he tends to disregard real bugs as not a bug, since he and his production are perfect and always right. Numerous cases of that. Then the security aspect of a jack of all trades process running as one that controls every other process. Reading logs after a panic and rebooting to check them is a pain in the ass without journald on the chrooting system, readi…

> who incidently after leaving the GNU/Linux is now working for the same company that sought to destroy it, Microsoft.

Woah, I missed that news! I don't imagine he'll stop writing Linux software though.

Re: Systemd 252

#150

Post by panick21_ »

Dah00n wrote: post #87
panick21_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook runs lots of Systemd but I'm sure on your infrastructure you couldn't run it.

Facebook is a Bad Example on stability at scale..

No it isn't. Running a hyper-scale infrastructure is incredible fucking hard and doing it at all is amazing.
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