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Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

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Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#291
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably referring to the rudimentary Martinez study that's making PRC collapists convinced PRC is over reporting GDP. For reference, much more sophisticated light study by NBER (staffed by FED economists) concluded PRC growth was higher than PRC reported GDP. But more broadly, it's important to understand GDP in PRC is (and has always been) guestimate to appease foreign investers / media for comparison wank.…

Those things you say are well known are in general new to me at least. What are the main references/links for these arguments?

If one follows PRC econ news from subject matter experts (both PRC and western) who full time focus on PRC, they're common discussion points.

Li Keqiang index, Context from wiki:

>According to a State Department memo (released by WikiLeaks), Li Keqiang (then the Chinese Communist Party Committee Secretary of Liaoning) told a US ambassador in 2007 that the GDP figures in Liaoning were unreliable and that he himself used three other indicators: the railway cargo volume, electricity consumption and loans disbursed by banks.

Total Social Finance - do a quick google for summary, another composite indicator because up until 2010s PRC just had shit tier data reporting without even factoring in central gov lack of trust of local gov reporting. LKI became mainstream when he became premier in 2013, both LKI and TSF gets reported in domestic and foreign analysis on PRC econ since.

GDP smoothing: https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2015/07/15/whether-t...

>There is a difference between smoothing data and totally fabricating it. Evidence suggests that China is guilty of the former (the lesser charge) but not the latter (the more serious allegation).

There's better academic writings in past decade that goes into why PRC smooths GDP, but TLDR circles back to GDP is more politically useful as setting a "target" for growth (for both local officials and to inform foreign media/investors) than actual "measure" for growth, which is better gauged with other indicators, that can still be gamed but less so than cells on a spread sheet.

>NBER study from 2017: https://www.nber.org/papers/w23323 Also discusses LKI and other background in PRC gdp reporting. As well as a country specific analysis vs Martinez let's crudely apply blunt metrics to every country generalist approach. Note this was published same year as Martinez study.

CSIS analysis: https://www.csis.org/analysis/broken-abacus The reports seems to be removed/for pay now, but there's podcasts from author that summarizes the study and degree of potential underreporting.

As for incentive to under report, that's more conspiracy theory but IMO well justified. PRC benefits structurally from being treated as developing economy much than transient PR of reaching high income per capita. If one believes PRC is under reporting GDP, or overreporting population, especially by some of the higher end numbers, then PRC per capita GDP may have reached higher income, which has been a contentious issue by other (developed) countries at the WTO who wants to strip PRC from benefits reserved for developing countries.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#293

It's hard to overstate how terrible this idea is. GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake. Once you start arguing about the economic value of volunteering, divorce, income inequality, and crime -- you've opened the door to never being able to trust GDP again. Should we create new metrics to track progress? Sure. Should we stop tracking GDP? No way.

GDP is super easy to fake. Just sell something on the black market. Just trade a service for a service instead of paying for it.

Or, to push it in the other direction: sell a service back and forth. I sell you a message for 1 billion and then you sell me one for 1 billion. Now we’ve increased gdp by 2 billion (although you need to live in a zero VAT and zero income tax country to do that as a private person and still have it count)

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#294

It's hard to overstate how terrible this idea is. GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake. Once you start arguing about the economic value of volunteering, divorce, income inequality, and crime -- you've opened the door to never being able to trust GDP again. Should we create new metrics to track progress? Sure. Should we stop tracking GDP? No way.

GDP is super easy to fake. Just sell something on the black market. Just trade a service for a service instead of paying for it. Or, to push it in the other direction: sell a service back and forth. I sell you a message for 1 billion and then you sell me one for 1 billion. Now we’ve increased gdp by 2 billion (although you need to live in a zero VAT and zero income tax country to do that as a private person and still…

> you need to live in a zero VAT and zero income tax country

Which means GDP is difficult to fake.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#295
post #75

"The philosopher John Stuart Mill noted more than 200 years ago that, once decent living standards were assured, human efforts should be directed to the pursuit of social and moral progress and the increase of leisure, not the competitive struggle for material wealth" Yes, we took the wrong turn. Most people are subjected to a life long rat race of economic relevance/volatility where most of their waking hours are sp…

>> Yes, we took the wrong turn. As long as there is scarcity there will be competition and a "rat race" I would say we have two real scarcities left remaining: energy and the conjoined pair food/water. It can be argued that that the latter is entirely dependent on the former and the failure of modernity was our collective inability to adopt/secure nuclear power in the period between 1940-1970, the global adoption and…

>As long as there is scarcity there will be competition and a "rat race"

That makes no sense. Human wants are infinite only at zero marginal cost. The moment there is a positive marginal cost wants become finite. Even a gift that costs you nothing has a marginal cost to receive and store it in your house. So even if the entirety of humanity gave Jeff Bezos a gift he would refuse those gifts at some point.

What western societies suffer from is not scarcity but abundance relative to our quite limited wants.

We give up an unreasonable amount of resources to buy something that is already there, land in a popular location. One thing that is special about land is that humans didn't create the earth. Suddenly there is an infinite demand for land because you own anything that happens on it, even the labor of other people working the land. The marginal cost of land is negative because of income taxation. But here is the thing. One man's land abundance is another man's land scarcity. So if you really wanted to solve this problem you would have to divide the earth equally among all humans.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dependent like a cancerous organ that is slowly killing its host, while removing might kill it immediately sure.

So what is the proper course of action for a situation where treatment leads to instantaneous failure and status quo does not?

Same answer as always, evolutionary socialism. Tackling the Russian money would be a good first step today. Find something that works a little and is possible today, and change that.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean when you say China fakes its GDP?

The Economist recently reported on a study that used the brightness of countries' lights at night as proxy for GDP[1][2]. The study suggests China and other autocracies have significantly exaggerated their GDP growth over the last twenty years. [1]: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/09/29/a-study-... [2]: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/how-much-should-we-tr...

I could for example use a sales of buckwheat as a proxy of GDP! I think ut will be some interesting reporting about who is exaggerated their GDP!

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#298
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Economist recently reported on a study that used the brightness of countries' lights at night as proxy for GDP[1][2]. The study suggests China and other autocracies have significantly exaggerated their GDP growth over the last twenty years. [1]: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/09/29/a-study-... [2]: https://bfi.uchicago.edu/working-paper/how-much-should-we-tr...

I want to say "this could be a false correlation" and recommend against believing the study's suggestion, but the damage is already done. Most of the thousands of people that read this article and the handful of people that read your comment have come away being convinced of something that could very well be false as if it were scientific fact because it was in the Economist and it's a "study".

The authors of the study looked at several possible alternative hypotheses. I suggest reading it before dismissing it.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, we could certainly try to supplant GDP as a metric. This is very apparent, because it was only about 30 years ago that GDP itself replaced GNP as the preferred metric for the same purposes in the US. The article mentions the use of GDP internationally for longer, but the US preferred GNP until 1991. Its also worth noting that the creator of the GDP, a decade before it became dominant (internationally), also war…

GNP and GDP are very close measures. If people spend a few minutes reading instead of trying their hardest to comment first with what little knowledge of economics they have rattling around their skull, they’d know that GNP does not make any sense in the modern economy.

I'd argue that most of modern economics does not make any sense in the modern economy :)

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#300
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not difficult to fake (e.g. China for the last 20 years). But I agree with you, we should add new metrics (and targets) but keep a GDP as one of them, also for the other indicators to mature (how they are measure, methodologies, transparency, etc...). Maybe one day GDP would be able to be left behind...

GDP is not what people randomly think it is. It is a measure of the economic output of a country. It isn’t about equality or productivity or did the money build a ghost town etc. If we had the magical mathematics to encode that much in a single number, we’d be traveling the stars.

GDP as it’s measured originally? Yes. It was a measurement of actual industrial strength. But since then it also includes made up stats such as investment risks and other ideological and fantastical things? No.
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