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Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

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Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#211

Post by csomar »

lkrubner wrote: post #58

Robert Kennedy, on the campaign trail in 1968: "Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising…

This is a BS political speech and it is very politically motivated. When you can't fix the economy (get GDP up), just claim the GDP doesn't matter. My country's president just claimed we should focus on National Happiness Product. Of course, when all your economical policies fail, economy is just numbers.

And no, having an accident doesn't increase GDP. If the passengers dies, that will remove their GDP from society. Riots are bad for business. The pandemic brought the GDP down even though Pfizer & Friends made record money.

GDP is the best measure of the size of an economy. Nominal GDP is the best measure of the power of an economy in its standing in the world, comparing to its at parity GDP.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#212

Post by quickthrower2 »

scotty79 wrote: post #71
nostromo wrote: post #62

It's hard to overstate how terrible this idea is. GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake. Once you start arguing about the economic value of volunteering, divorce, income inequality, and crime -- you've opened the door to never being able to trust GDP again. Should we create new metrics to track progress? Sure. Should we stop tracking GDP? No way.

Actually we can get better metrics than GDP by measuring amount of light on satellite night images. It fits GDP more or less for western democracies, but it it better measure for other countries.

Or perhaps measure other forms of pollution?

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#213

Post by hot_gril »

thereisnospork wrote: post #197
hot_gril wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Initially, he means that a single self-sufficient person contributes 0 to the GDP. Then it seems like he means people in this village don't trade with each other, but I'm not sure. If they trade without money, first of all that's very inefficient, secondly there's still a GDP of sorts but maybe he means it's not measured. But he doesn't care about efficiency. He's not saying GDP is a poor indicator of economic growth…

>Initially, he means that a single self-sufficient person contributes 0 to the GDP There is probably an argument that for accounting purposes a person should bill themselves at market costs for self-work. E.g. mowing the lawn, changing one's own oil, doing one's taxes -- all are economic activities with a value associated which is 'lost' in a traditional GDP calculation.

Yeah, if it were possible to do that, it'd make sense. Best people can do is mentally bill themselves for their time and factor that into personal decisions.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#214

Post by refurb »

jamesgill wrote: post #21

The silliness of GDP is one of the worst-kept secrets in politics and economics. It's like measuring the quality of a car by how fast it's going.

That’s a terrible analogy.

GDP is like measuring how useful the car is.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#215

Post by refurb »

Jedd wrote: post #119

I accept that fiat money is entirely supported by the notion of perpetual growth, but in the abstract it's hard to come to terms with the idea our society is so fundamentally committed to, and reliant upon, growth .

No it’s not. Fiat money can easily be used for a 0% growth economy.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#217

Post by throwawaylinux »

grecy wrote: post #154
nostromo wrote: post #62

It's hard to overstate how terrible this idea is. GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake. Once you start arguing about the economic value of volunteering, divorce, income inequality, and crime -- you've opened the door to never being able to trust GDP again. Should we create new metrics to track progress? Sure. Should we stop tracking GDP? No way.

> GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake The best counter to that I've ever heard: "Let's say I pay you $10M to eat a pile of shit, then for kicks you pay me $10M to eat a similar pile of shit. You know what the end result is? The GDP has increased $20M, and we both have huge shit-eating grins". The GDP is laughably easy to fake.

> "Let's say I pay you $10M to eat a pile of shit, then for kicks you pay me $10M to eat a similar pile of shit. You know what the end result is? The GDP has increased $20M, and we both have huge shit-eating grins".

If people were buying piles of shit for $10M, then that is what the GDP would be. That's not faking GDP.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#218

Post by h0l0cube »

Aunche wrote: post #190
chiefalchemist wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not how he was campaigning, was it? Nor was it his fault he was born that way. The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs. Where he came from doesn't dictate where he was headed. The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs

What makes you think that RFK was substantially different from LBJ or any of the other Democrats at the time?

What makes you think he wasn’t beyond ‘sins of the father’?

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#219

Post by chaps »

csomar wrote: post #211
lkrubner wrote: post #58

Robert Kennedy, on the campaign trail in 1968: "Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising…

This is a BS political speech and it is very politically motivated. When you can't fix the economy (get GDP up), just claim the GDP doesn't matter. My country's president just claimed we should focus on National Happiness Product. Of course, when all your economical policies fail, economy is just numbers. And no, having an accident doesn't increase GDP. If the passengers dies, that will remove their GDP from society.…

The quote doesn't say it's not a bad measure of economy, nor that it doesn't matter.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#220

Post by aeternum »

1dry wrote: post #131
hnews_account_1 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GDP is not what people randomly think it is. It is a measure of the economic output of a country. It isn’t about equality or productivity or did the money build a ghost town etc. If we had the magical mathematics to encode that much in a single number, we’d be traveling the stars.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that "traveling the stars" is a worthy goal, even more worthy than stewardship of the paradise we already have. We are living in heaven. We have a wonderful planet that nurtures us yet we continue to sabotage our favorable situation for the sake of growing worthless numbers like GDP, all while some people starve or are forced into lives of misery. And yes, I have read Para…

The earth is at best a temporary paradise, doomed to be burned up by a rogue asteroid or if it's exceedingly lucky its very own sun. Also incomprehensibly limited in the population and diversity of life it can support when compared with the universe.

How incredibly selfish of us to decide we shall be the select few that get to live on a single planet when the universe has the potential to support so many more lives.

Every second we delay, countless earth-like planets are being consumed by black holes, never to be seen again.

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