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Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

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Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#181
post #164
post #75

"The philosopher John Stuart Mill noted more than 200 years ago that, once decent living standards were assured, human efforts should be directed to the pursuit of social and moral progress and the increase of leisure, not the competitive struggle for material wealth" Yes, we took the wrong turn. Most people are subjected to a life long rat race of economic relevance/volatility where most of their waking hours are sp…

Wrong turn? Rat race? Compared to what? Your ancestors 200 years ago were malnourished, working the fields all day to eke out a miserable existence, never enjoying a single luxury in life. They didn't know how to read or write, and in any case wouldn't have had time for such luxurious activities. Human progress has brought us to the point where we have the free time to complain about how disadvantaged we are and how…

Literacy rates in Western Europe and North America were quite high. There was an bustling trade in almanacs, pamphlets, periodicals and Bibles. Go read about Charles Dickens' career and how he succeeded by appealing to the tastes of the common man.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#182
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And shortly thereafter, he was assassinated. Another historical "fun fact", is that MLK wasn't assassinated while pushing for civil rights. He was killed once he shifted his focus to financial injustice and wealth inequality. Two might not be a pattern, but it's no accident these historical figures were both challenging the deep pockets status quo and they both died prematurely.

Robert Kennedy was the son of the equivalent of a billionaire and the brother of a President. He was the status quo.

Son of a billionaire equivalent who clibmed and made his money running illegal drugs. JFK became president on drug money. (Is that status quo money? Dunno...)

/me waits for the howls of protest.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#183
post #75

"The philosopher John Stuart Mill noted more than 200 years ago that, once decent living standards were assured, human efforts should be directed to the pursuit of social and moral progress and the increase of leisure, not the competitive struggle for material wealth" Yes, we took the wrong turn. Most people are subjected to a life long rat race of economic relevance/volatility where most of their waking hours are sp…

You're assuming zero population growth and that people "over there" who look and/or talk different that it separately doesn't matter if they starve.

When we make things more efficent it is reasonable to remember this is the /world/ economy getting more efficient and the most important thing we are making efficent is growing enough food for 7b people through specialisation and trade and espeically technical progress. The second most important thing is making it so that parents don't routinely and commonly watch their children die in pain.

In Mill's time at the height of the biggest empire ever known, right at its centre of wealth children starved. Their parents watched them die from what we now refer to as "preventable disease" and are outraged when any child in the world dies of it.

I'm taking that faustian bargain we took as a species every f*king time. No we did not "take the wrong turn." There remains plenty to discuss on how to do it better going forward.

2c worth, YMMV.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#184
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the politicians today who can quote Aeschylus at will? What happened to our national discourse that we’ve filled it with dimwits?

That was a result of an elite education in the Latin and Greek classics. We don't do this anymore because most of us are not middle-class private boarding school-educated British people (where it was mandatory), not because we're dimwits.

Hrm, I went to public school in the 1980s and received a fair facsimile of a classical education.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#185
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And shortly thereafter, he was assassinated. Another historical "fun fact", is that MLK wasn't assassinated while pushing for civil rights. He was killed once he shifted his focus to financial injustice and wealth inequality. Two might not be a pattern, but it's no accident these historical figures were both challenging the deep pockets status quo and they both died prematurely.

Robert Kennedy was the son of the equivalent of a billionaire and the brother of a President. He was the status quo.

That was not how he was campaigning, was it? Nor was it his fault he was born that way.

The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs.

Where he came from doesn't dictate where he was headed.

The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#186
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the politicians today who can quote Aeschylus at will? What happened to our national discourse that we’ve filled it with dimwits?

That was a result of an elite education in the Latin and Greek classics. We don't do this anymore because most of us are not middle-class private boarding school-educated British people (where it was mandatory), not because we're dimwits.

[deleted]

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#187
post #151
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A business? No. A bank? No. A country? No. In a modern democracy, only one of those three could conceivably have your interests at heart. Lumping them all together damages participation in democracy, which exacerbates the problem.

Democracy is incompatible with freedom. As soon as enough people decide I should die or lose my possessions or do some other thing I don't want to do, I am forced against my will with violence. So we are stuck relying on the intelligence and wisdom and foresight of the masses. No wonder we're screwed.

I imagine you've never really engaged in political philosophy very thoroughly?

Much like any political system you can imagine, a democratic system requires a complex web of rules and regulations to function properly. For one, so-called democracies always require more specification. Are you talking about direct democracy? Are you talking about deliberative democracy? Are you talking about representative democracy?

Democracy does not mean, by the way, the "rule of the majority" because "demos" does not mean majority but people. And for the common people to rule you need a system to encompass it. Of course, over time there have been a lot of criticism and a lot of work done in deciding which rules and which structures are the most appropriate to make the necessary compromises for our political systems to work.

To put things on perspective, in Switzerland for example they have decided that the will of the swiss people is above international treaties. And this does pose a problem, for example there was a referendum a couple years back for the banning of face covering; a policy which affects everyone, yes, but affects most a particular group (muslim women). But in most cases, swiss people have a very full participatory democracy and their political system is incredibly stable. It's not perfect, and a lot of experts in the field consider countries should never be above international treaties such as the human rights treaty that most countries have signed.

When you say "we are stuck relying on the intelligence and wisdom of the masses" you're making a pro-elitism argument. In that the masses ought to be ruled by people better than the masses; and in many ways, this is the approach countries like China have taken. To me, a big problem with this approach comes from the ego of individuals. Is it really possible to change someone's mind who happens to be in a position of power such as that? Is it easy? Personally I believe this to be a much more dangerous prospect. A good example of this can be seen, I think, in Meta (the company) where Zuckerberg is pretty much destroying the company and everyone but him can see it. Yes, this man build the company, but does that expertise translate to every future challenge? It is why we tend to prefer collective decision making, usually smaller bodies, but could there be space to make better use of bigger collectives? I think so.

So in short, I think you should probably read a little more about political philosophy to be able to say something as big as "Democracy is incompatible with freedom". It's a pretty big statement.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#188

GDP, like many economic metrics, is of course not an absolute indicator of anything significant. You can set up two shell companies and have them buy and sell the same paper clip between them thousands of times a second, for a million dollars each. It will boost GDP by quite a lot. Of course historically, such deception has not always dominated, and the apparent GDP has been a good proxy for total genuine economic ac…

> You can set up two shell companies and have them buy and sell the same paper clip between them thousands of times a second, for a million dollars each. In the case of used goods, the only effect on GDP comes from the transaction fees paid to the broker. Same with buying an already existing house: the GDP contribution is the real estate and legal fees. And with the stock and bond markets: a trillion dollars' worth o…

And in the case of new goods, only the final product sold to consumers or held in inventory at the end of the accounting period counts towards GDP. Intermediate inputs do not count. So one paper clip sold one million times counts as one paper clip.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#189
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Human Development Index is another good alternative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

I don’t personally like it. It measures input factors rather than outcomes. I think surveyed happiness multiplied by life expectancy is a better measure.

“Input factors” have many imperfections, but at least they can lead to more objectively comparable metrics.

When comparing between populations, subjective measures such as surveyed happiness make for very poor and very noisy metrics - you often can’t even simply compare answers between different populations within a country. It is even dependent upon your age demographic https://archive.ph/sAzDA and there are some surprisingly counterintuitive properties to reported happiness: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easterlin_paradox

I would think that life expectancy is a poor metric, because: (1) the differences become smaller as it rises so it becomes dominated by noise, (2) it overvalues the last few years of life compared to the rest of a life, and (3) expectancy is highly dependent on how it is calculated along with parameters such as input factors, similar to those that you dislike!

In summary: intuition can often be a very poor substitute for research, and before relying on your intuition it is a good idea to look at the basics.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#190
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robert Kennedy was the son of the equivalent of a billionaire and the brother of a President. He was the status quo.

That was not how he was campaigning, was it? Nor was it his fault he was born that way. The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs. Where he came from doesn't dictate where he was headed. The most difficult attacks to stop are inside jobs

What makes you think that RFK was substantially different from LBJ or any of the other Democrats at the time?
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