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Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

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Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#121

Post by strangeattractr »

dakial1 wrote: post #80
nostromo wrote: post #62

It's hard to overstate how terrible this idea is. GDP is a concrete measure that is difficult to fake. Once you start arguing about the economic value of volunteering, divorce, income inequality, and crime -- you've opened the door to never being able to trust GDP again. Should we create new metrics to track progress? Sure. Should we stop tracking GDP? No way.

It is not difficult to fake (e.g. China for the last 20 years). But I agree with you, we should add new metrics (and targets) but keep a GDP as one of them, also for the other indicators to mature (how they are measure, methodologies, transparency, etc...). Maybe one day GDP would be able to be left behind...

What do you mean when you say China fakes its GDP?

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#122

Post by Waterluvian »

nostromo wrote: post #81
lkrubner wrote: post #58

Robert Kennedy, on the campaign trail in 1968: "Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising…

Quoted post unavailable.

It kind of feels like this comment is the straw man.

There’s nothing wrong with GDP as a metric, especially if you want to know the economic horsepower of a nation. The argument being made is that it’s not a good metric when measuring success of a nation.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#123

Post by kortilla »

voisin wrote: post #101
lkrubner wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While RFK sometimes got help from Edwin Guthman and Peter Edelman, he also spoke extemporaneously sometimes, most famously when he had to announce the death of Martin Luther King to a crowd that hadn't yet heard the news: https://kennedykingindy.org/full-rfk-speech

Where are the politicians today who can quote Aeschylus at will? What happened to our national discourse that we’ve filled it with dimwits?

> filled it with dimwits?

Not knowing Aeschylus has nothing to do with wit.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#124

Post by _jal »

voisin wrote: post #101
lkrubner wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While RFK sometimes got help from Edwin Guthman and Peter Edelman, he also spoke extemporaneously sometimes, most famously when he had to announce the death of Martin Luther King to a crowd that hadn't yet heard the news: https://kennedykingindy.org/full-rfk-speech

Where are the politicians today who can quote Aeschylus at will? What happened to our national discourse that we’ve filled it with dimwits?

They'll have to come from the landed gentry.

For those whose parents won't be paying the indenture, college has been priced to the point where ROI on the degree has to be the primary consideration for most of those going. And the return on Aeschylus is low, at least until you're giving speeches.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#126

Post by jahewson »

fleddr wrote: post #75

"The philosopher John Stuart Mill noted more than 200 years ago that, once decent living standards were assured, human efforts should be directed to the pursuit of social and moral progress and the increase of leisure, not the competitive struggle for material wealth" Yes, we took the wrong turn. Most people are subjected to a life long rat race of economic relevance/volatility where most of their waking hours are sp…

I don't know, there's plenty of people competing over social progress, competing over moral progress, and completing over leisure. I suspect that Mr Mill would take a dim view of this.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#128

Post by kortilla »

RichEO wrote: post #117
fleddr wrote: post #75

"The philosopher John Stuart Mill noted more than 200 years ago that, once decent living standards were assured, human efforts should be directed to the pursuit of social and moral progress and the increase of leisure, not the competitive struggle for material wealth" Yes, we took the wrong turn. Most people are subjected to a life long rat race of economic relevance/volatility where most of their waking hours are sp…

> A business? No. A bank? No. A country? No. In a modern democracy, only one of those three could conceivably have your interests at heart. Lumping them all together damages participation in democracy, which exacerbates the problem.

Democracy absolutely does not care about you and thinking it does is damaging to democracy. Democracy is just executing the will of the majority. If your interests don’t align with thah majority, the country is not acting on your behalf.

Knowing that an participating in democracy without tying up your identity in the outcomes is critical.

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#129

Post by tunesmith »

nostromo wrote: post #81
lkrubner wrote: post #58

Robert Kennedy, on the campaign trail in 1968: "Too much and for too long, we seemed to have surrendered personal excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our Gross National Product, now, is over $800 billion dollars a year, but that Gross National Product - if we judge the United States of America by that - that Gross National Product counts air pollution and cigarette advertising…

Quoted post unavailable.

I think the real point is that an alternative measure should measure things that are reliably measurable. Pull in more externalities, sure. But it's really hard to derive a metric that won't be gamed. (Not impossible though; see "proper scoring rules".)

Re: Gross domestic product is a misleading measure of national success (2014)

#130

Post by ummonk »

Jedd wrote: post #119

I accept that fiat money is entirely supported by the notion of perpetual growth, but in the abstract it's hard to come to terms with the idea our society is so fundamentally committed to, and reliant upon, growth .

An economy can function without growth. Stagnation is perfectly viable. But why should a society not be fundamentally committed to growth and aspire to increasing greatness?
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