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US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

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Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socioeconomic status is a much better goal if you want to "even the playing field" but it has serious flaws. The most obvious is it is incredibly easy to game: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/income... Any ideas on how students with no income managed to own $57 million in houses? Would these people qualify for a socio-economic advantage when applying for school?

Race is easy to game too, in fact far easier. I know people who were around 5% Hispanic who would then write Hispanic on college applications. They're technically not lying. There's also just plenty of people that just straight up lie about their race on college applications. It's not like its being verified at all. I went to high school with a lot of White - Asian mixed kids. None of them wrote Asian on their colleg…

Realistically, we should eliminate the category of hispanic entirely. It is orthogonal to race and the easiest one to game.

My college counselor told me to mark Hispanic because my parents are portuguese. I did not out of principle because I consider myself pretty standard white.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#252
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was even a United States senator who claimed to be Native American, was awarded academic positions based on that, but a DNA test proved her native ancestry to be so minuscule as to not even be measurable.

The part about 'was awarded academic positions based on that' is debatable, e.g. this claim was investigated by a newspaper (article below is titled 'Ethnicity not a factor in Elizabeth Warren's rise in law'): https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claim...

I think it is pretty hard to investigate this and prove it false, as such decisions are often very opaque.

My guess is if she marked Native American on any application form or was considered by the insitution to be Native American, it had an impact.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constitutional reality is right-biased.

The US constitution and the bill of rights are based on classical liberal ideas, like inalienable rights, the consent of the governed, secularism, etc.

Those are all right-wing ideas. "Classical liberalism" is a misleadingly named far-right ideology; it's diametrically opposed to progressivism.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution and the bill of rights are based on classical liberal ideas, like inalienable rights, the consent of the governed, secularism, etc.

Those are all right-wing ideas. "Classical liberalism" is a misleadingly named far-right ideology; it's diametrically opposed to progressivism.

Not at all. Those ideas were formed in a time when they were not the norm. State religion is about as conservative as you can get, it has existed for all of human history, and was the default until very recently. When the US constitution was adopted it was a progressive change. However, yesterday's progressivism is always today's status quo.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's complicated, and you can have your own takeaway, but mine is that merit often defined wrong. I'm on the lookout for people who did more with less, or even did equal or near to it with less. To me, that is more a measure of merit than top line measures like test scores. I agree with this, and the problem is how many schools look directly at race for that. This reminds me of predictive policing ML models that ta…

So giving Black students a slightly higher chance to get into Harvard, all other things being equal, reminds you of sending the cops to overpolice neighborhoods Black people live in? I guess they're the same in a way. Doing bad things reminds me of doing good things because things are being done in either case.

> giving Black students a slightly higher chance to get into Harvard

Giving Asian students a significantly lower chance to get into Harvard, because they're considered "more privileged" based on race alone.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#256
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tl;dr Berkeley is still exclusive even after you're admitted Berkeley has its own way of filtering students once they're admitted. This is most obvious with the computer science majors, of which there are two that involve almost the same coursework. EECS is super hard to get into to begin with. Whereas anyone in the school can intend L&S CS, but there's a rather high GPA cutoff (at like 30th %tile but don't quote me)…

I also want to highlight that this dynamic messes up those adjacent programs. I was a cognitive science student because I thought it was fascinating, and it's unfortunate that the program gets a bit diluted by being branded "the other CS" and some share of students that don't actually care about the other components.

Yeah, it kinda stinks. I want to edit my comment saying that cog sci is just mostly the alt bucket for comp sci, but it's too late. My roommate was cog sci because he actually cared about it, then he switched majors.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "socioeconomic" is really malleable, when in actuality you probably meant "low income" or "poor". This might be a better measure, but can be gamed also as you point out. This however doesn't necessarily mean the measure is bad.

No, i meant socioeconomic factors... "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more." Notice it includes "Income"? it includes other factors as well such as…

> "What are socioeconomic examples? Social and economic factors, such as income, education, employment, community safety, and social supports can significantly affect how well and how long we live. These factors affect our ability to make healthy choices, afford medical care and housing, manage stress, and more."

This is a bit non-sensical. If you take education as an example for college admission, you need to support the ones that are the least suitable for exactly that.

I know you certainly don't mean that, but you said it. Make it concrete and you notice the error. Socio-economic is a handwavy term.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"socio-economic status" means nothing. This is so often used after race (discrimination) apparently is no longer a good argument "yeah but it's socio-economic". It's not falsifiable and therefore it should be dismissed as an argument. If you mean poor, say poor.

> if you mean poor, say poor I literally said "poor" in my example in the second paragraph. Also, "socio-economic status" is a spectrum between poor and wealthy, including all of them. Just like "race" includes all races. We don't call it "non-white-and-asian-based affirmative action", so i dont see why you have an issue with me not calling it "poor-based affirmative action". It is a sliding scale, with all groups wi…

> Also, "socio-economic status" is a spectrum between poor and wealthy, including all of them. Just like "race" includes all races. We don't call it "non-white-and-asian-based affirmative action", so i dont see why you have an issue with me not calling it "poor-based affirmative action". It is a sliding scale, with all groups within it having different weights attached. So calling it "poor-based affirmative action" makes zero sense to me.

In total: One can make up the groups ... and the weights. It's completely arbitrary. That's why socio-economic is closer to astrology than a clearly defined term. Sure, you can make up cool calculations (with statistics even!), but it does not mean anything.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This reminds me of predictive policing ML models that take race as a factor. In statistical systems you often have to take in race as a factor to remove it as one. You can't debias a system if you can't determine the bias. There are many things that highly correlate with race: a notorious one being zip code (byproduct of red lining). But there's also a lot of non-obvious ones and considering historical data is used…

The system developer has to look at race to de-bias a system, but the system shouldn't take race as input, unless it's somehow able to de-bias itself. In this example, I'd wonder why ZIP code is even an input.

So I'd consider that part of the system. You could also train your model to debias by using a cost function that incorporates race and minimizes the KL divergence between different ethnicities. (Obviously it would be best to use interpretable models and/or causal ones) A Mahalanobis distance might also be good here. But when training your model you might want to PCA it and if race isn't an included factor then you can't see if it is a main contributing component or not. You should be training your model such that the racial variable contributes near nothing to the model's outcome (easier said than done).

> In this example, I'd wonder why ZIP code is even an input.

The school you go to is strongly correlated with zip code. So... if any of your schools are considered on your college app (hint: they are) then you have extracted the zip code (which again, points back to red lining[0]). In the crime example, the zip code is going to also correlate with the frequency and type of crime as crime (especially when broken down into types of crime) is not homogeneously distributed across a country/state/city (to be honest, not even a zip code! But the more you zoom in the more accurate you get. Aggregation bias is a pain).

This stuff is a pet peeve of mine. Our tiny human brains weren't designed to figure out how all these things are connected. That's why we use data science and statistics. It is why data science and statistics is so fucking hard too! Even more so when you get into causal statistics. Contributions may frequently be obvious post hoc, but they rarely are a priori (which is why "novelty" is so absurd). The world is extremely complex and we have long chains of causality that we have to work with. The problem here is our brains are designed to simplify things. To take first or second order approximations. The problem with this is that these approximations are not sufficient for navigating the major issues we face in the modern world. These low order approximations often lead us in the wrong direction rather than being a small step in the right direction. If you're taking a gradient descent in a complex feature space (thousands of features/dimensions) then approximating it in 2D will get you nowhere near an equilibria. There's probably dozens, or hundreds, of features that are highly significant. All before we get into the mess of coupling and confounders.

This is a problem because: 1) we fight over things we're not even qualified to have an opinion on; 2) the actions we take are frequently determined by popularity with a hint of analysis and the popularity is determined by low order modeling; 3) because we have a limited view of our actions we can easily convince ourselves that low order approximations are good because they work locally (spacial and temporal) but not over the global solution space (humans are notoriously terrible at long term thinking/planning and this too is highly correlated with income levels/life stability).

Our modern world is highly dependent upon specialization but we have a culture that tries to convince us that expertise in an extremely narrow domain generalizes really well. It doesn't and that is destroying us. This isn't just a "you" problem, so you're not being targeted. These issues are highly common on HN and anywhere nerds congregate because that cultural pressure convinced us that our self-worth is dependent upon the generalization of our knowledge. Einstein nor Feynman said you don't understand something unless you can explain it to a simpleton/your grandma/a child. Most stuff you can't because domain expertise is required for even basic understanding. So I'm trying to put social pressure to solve this problem and I hope others will join.

tldr: The world is fucking complex, treat it that way

[0] One of the major issues with red lining (there are a lot) is that where you live determines the quality of education you get. School funding is often related to housing taxes. Cheaper houses? Less funding. Less funding? Lower education. Lower education? Increased difficulty in climbing the socioeconomic ladder. Which correlates with crime rates. Which correlates with a lot of things. These downstream effects aren't actually dependent upon race but if you correlate an upstream effect with race then the downstream ones do too.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#260

> Institutions like Harvard say they consider an applicant's race as one of several factors - including economic status and religious belief - in order to build classes that accurately represent the racial and ethnic diversity of the country. I mean, this is all kind of window dressing for elite institutions to be elite, right? There are millions of people qualified to attend these university, Harvard gets to hand se…

Don't underestimate how much they can push the cognitive dissonance :-)

"Do Unto Other Harvard Students" - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/do-unto...

“...but we also recognize principles such as inclusiveness and equality, which many members of the Harvard community consider of paramount importance to our mission..."

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