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U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

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Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#341

Post by nonrandomstring »

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

Well said. Particularly on the value of trust within systems.

In case it's of interest I wrote an article a couple of days ago on how "Digital Systems Fail Institutions" [1].

[1] https://techrights.org/2022/10/26/when-digital-systems-fail/

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#342

Post by RajT88 »

conductr wrote: post #110
lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

I don’t think productivity was ever the goal of this software. It was to have a record that is standard, digital, transferable, etc. Doctors fought it as long as they could because they knew what it meant for them. I remember pretty early demos in early/mid 2000s when I was doing some clinical grunt work in college. I had written some software to make my department’s life easier so I was offered up as the hospital’s…

I used to work in Healthcare software (Not Epic).

Productivity is indeed a selling point.

I will also tell you that EHR software is universally hated by doctors. Does not matter who makes it. The company that cracks that will make billions.

One interesting idea was a voice assistant wired up to take inputs as doctors did their work. I don't think it went anywhere (yet).

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#343

Post by lotsofpulp »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #305
RomanPushkin wrote: post #95

My guess it's a game against inflation. People understand they're getting paid less for their hard work, and not motivated enough to work harder every day. For comparison, I'm spending x1.5 more on groceries than 1 year ago. Some items even x2 more expensive, comparing to last year. Salaries aren't growing that fast. Personally, I love what do, and this fact didn't affect the ability to work. However, I can imagine s…

While Groceries have been impacted by inflation, the big chains in the US have also been just raising prices as indicated by their increased profits recently: https://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/kroger-profit...

Profit margin would be the relevant metric, not profit. And as you can see, profit margin has not increased:

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/KR/kroger/profit-m...

Of course, a business with sub 3% profit margins maintaining sub 3% profit margins is hardly news, but inciting anger for no reason does result in more clicks.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#344

Post by toss1 »

StillBored wrote: post #249
yamtaddle wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also fought it because they didn't go to medical school and survive residency to fill out forms all damn day—and they didn't used to have to, they had staff for that. Then the computerized systems "replaced" that staff but all that really means is they cut the human time needed low enough that full-time workers weren't needed, but didn't eliminate it, so now that's another thing doctors have to do themselves. AF…

But the doctors almost always were taking notes anyway. My step father (A doctor) fought a losing battle against electronic records because he had _decades_ of paper records stored in the "records" room of his office. That was largely the responsibility of the front desk to pull the patients records and have them ready for him to read/check before seeing the patient. Then clean them up and refile them. Long term pati…

Sounds about right

For those that seemed to transfer successfully, I noted that at Mayo Clinic, the doctors use live dictation software and dictate at least some of their notes into the system while the patient is present near the end. This immediate review sometimes brings up a few new questions (from either Dr or patient), and a bit more notetaking. So, it looks like a very efficient system. They also have no apparent shortage of staff organizing things.

That said, I doubt every medical organization and office has the same quality setup as a top world-class institution. At some level of degradation, the system becomes more of a hindrance than a help, and that point is likely fairly near the top levels (so most of it is a hindrance).

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#345

Post by autoexec »

baxtr wrote: post #270
cestith wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of what you've both said, plus the number of people who thought or still think COVID-19 is "no big deal" who now have a pulmonary deficiency and long-term mental fog.

The difficult part of it is: for some people it is literally nothing. We had it now for the fourth time since 2020 even though we’re properly vaccinated and careful as much as life permits. It’s a bit worse than a cold but much better for than the flu. So, yes, for us life just goes on with COVID. No need to change anything.

That is a problem. It's a dice roll each time a person is infected depending on a huge number of factors including what strain they've been hit with. Reinfections can give worse odds each time. People who got lucky once or twice before might be more careless thinking their luck will continue and end up screwing themselves.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20220707/each-covid-19-reinf...

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#346

Post by robertlagrant »

conductr wrote: post #282
sokoloff wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is amusing as, 10 years ago, my wife (a decade-plus under 60, even now) showed up to a consultation with a doctor who remarked that she looked very good for someone over 60 and who suffered from a series of conditions that she did not have but showed up in "her" medical records.

My wife is in 30s but has had a lot of women's health stuff going on the last decade. We stay completely within the same "healthcare network" of hospitals precisely because they actually use the same system and all doctors can access it (obviously we like the providers as well!) But even for basic procedures we could save a little on like lab work or imaging by going out of this network we've learned it doesn't reall…

Yes. All the systems are set up this way.

The problem is: how do you allow departments to retain their fiefdoms in a world of centralised data? The answer is to spend a fortune on management consulting.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#348

Post by gort19 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #269
lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

> I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. I don't think "by almost any measure" is right. I think…

No post body was provided.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#349

Post by pixl97 »

WalterBright wrote: post #212
WalterBright wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Productivity kept on climbing and wages stagnated post ~1980 The growth of government sopped up the difference. Nothing the government does comes for free, and then there's all the additional costs of complying with regulations and doing all the paperwork.

For the people who don't like my post, where does all the money come from that funds the government? Nothing is free.

Please stop being the highlight of zero sum thinking.

Let's make up a hypothetical example. The government says you have to install a safety rail and the amortized cost is $1 a year.

You: OMG, this is going to cost $100 over the next century, a huge loss, I am destroyed.

Reality: Johnny doesn't fall of the equipment being coming paralyzed (costing you an immediate $200 in lawsuit and payout fees) and is able to produce economic product over the next few decades bringing in $400 to the economy. Net win for everyone.

That's where the money comes from. Or would you rather be like Russia where you have a giant potential economy that outputs less than Italy and doesn't give a damned about corruption and has terrible quality of living standards/longevity?

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#350

Post by gridspy »

astrange wrote: post #304
mcguire wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it increases GDP! Yay!

It doesn't increase GDP if they get less productive.

Many things increase GDP without being good. For instance Oil spills increase GDP as suddenly a bunch more (cleanup) work is being done and paid for.
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