NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#161

Post by alistairSH » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:05 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #130

joe5150 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law doesn't say you can't offer someone a different job than they applied for.

If I make up the job after meeting the candidate, is that OK?

Sure, if you can talk your boss/executive that a candidate is a true super-star and you should pay over the published range, why not?

The goal of this law, and others like it, is fixing the bottom end of the range to prevent low ball offers from employers that know women and minorities (and others) frequently undervalue themselves.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#162

Post by time_to_smile » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:07 PM UTC

gsk22 wrote: post #5

While I am supportive of this, I expect a lot (majority?) of listings with ranges like "$40k-200k based on experience". (Or the example from the article, "$17-50/hr")

I'm happy with an upper bound. I've been able to quickly disqualify a lot of recruiter messages simply by asking for comp ranges and discovering that max possible is less than my base, let alone RSUs and bonus.

Even with a larger range like you proposed it's easy to ask yourself where you are in that distribution. Even if your current comp is 190, a range 40-200 means it's only worth the time to interview if you really like the company and think the role might be a great fit. If you're making 60k currently then there's a reasonable chance you can get a high enough of a raise to make the move make sense.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#163

Post by BeefySwain » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:07 PM UTC

throwaway292939 wrote: post #110

chrisdbanks wrote: post #94

As an employer, I am reticent to name a salary range because the fact is that the return on investment of employees is not normally distributed; it follows a power law where the top people return many times the amount of an average person. This may be because of connections, experience, intelligence, or a mixture. When I recruit I always want to hire a top person for whom I'm happy to pay 50% more than an average per…

Eh I'm not sure this argument holds up. You can post a job ad targeting the top people and list the top of market salary band. If you can't find such a candidate, you can delete the job ad and post the ad targeting the "average person". You may even be able to post the two ads simultaneously.

And what, everyone who encounters both of them will conveniently silo themselves into the appropriate bin?

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#164

Post by irrational » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:08 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Sounds like HR at those companies has no clue what they are doing. I work for a Fortune 100 company. Everyone has a very specific job title and everyone with the same job title is guaranteed to make the exact same amount as anyone else with the same job title. They have a third party company come in and do a review yearly to make sure that is the case. We are not able to create new job titles without a lot of work. So, we always know exactly what the salary will be for anyone we are trying to hire.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#165

Post by iso1631 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:08 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

My company has recently posted internal salary ranges for job titles. There's the bottom of the range, a 33% mark, and the top of the range.

Everyone gets paid at least the bottom of the range. After proving competent they must be on the 33% mark. Some are paid above the top of the range but it's rare.

A given job family has different titles, broadly Junior-'Vanilla'-Senior-Principal. A junior might be on 25-45, vanilla on 35-55, a senior on 40-65, a principal on 55-80, or whatever (triple those for US wags I guess). That fits the "more experienced" part. You could advertise for a principal and find someone who just about scrapes in, so pay them 55, find someone great and offer them 80.

When advertising externally though, this information is not available - unless you know someone who already works there, which is crazy.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#166

Post by adam_arthur » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:08 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

All true, but simply give the 20th to 80th percentile comp as bands and state that above band comp is awarded in some cases.

I’ve worked in a hiring manager capacity for close to a decade, and we absolutely know the bands, despite them being quite wide.

Companies that are well run can succeed without hiding information from their employees… and it’s a huge waste of time to interview somebody whose expectations are totally mismatched

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#167

Post by iso1631 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

zebnyc wrote: post #159

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

I don't mind if there are certain companies which don't want to list their salary range. However, they also need to be respectful of candidates' time and energy. Recently I had a company reach out to me and after asking me many questions about my background for an hour, the recruiter asks me, "What is your salary expectation?". I said I would rather not say but would be happy to let them know if their range is accept…

If your expectation is 200 and you're about to hang up, tell them 450 just for shits and giggles. You never know, it might work.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#168

Post by missedthecue » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

nathan_compton wrote: post #60

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

"This is convenient for corporations so suck it up." isn't a very compelling argument. The purpose of the government is to represent the interests of the people in situations where there is sufficient agreement to pass legislation. If your company doesn't like complying with local laws, its easy, just don't look for people in this country. The people have a right to set the terms of exchanges in the marketplace.

That's a fairly uncharitable way to phrase his point. I think what he's getting at is that it is hard for market participants to accurately price goods and services when they are working with insufficient information.

If I asked you to tell me how much you'd pay for a shirt, you'd either have to give me a wide range, or start asking questions to understand what you're getting. A formal tux dress shirtfront? A dirty old Hanes undergarment?

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#169

Post by JackFr » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:10 PM UTC

barbazoo wrote: post #155

llbeansandrice wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. As an employee, sounds like not my fuckin problem. I'm not about to go through 3 phone screens, a take-home test, a full-day onsite, etc. just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied. > I think it will be about $X Oh! So looks like it's not that hard to ball-park a number off the top of your head. I don't get this "how the world really w…

> I'm not about to go through 3 phone screens, a take-home test, a full-day onsite, etc. just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied. Maybe I got lucky but I've always been able to figure out the rough range they were thinking of paying before the first real interview. In case of recruiters, sure, they want to talk to you first and that's 15 minutes you'll never get back. Personally I just don't move…

That’s the value ad of a good recruiter. You tell them I’ll move for $X and don’t call me without that.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#170

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 8:10 PM UTC

m-ee wrote: post #16

robertlagrant wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they'll hate it. If they know what a prospective employee is making, they can offer a minimal increment on that within their (wide) salary range. Currently, only the employer knows their real budget (and that may change if they get the right candidate) and only the employee knows what they'll move for. Salary negotiation is based on those two secrets. This legislation makes the latter secret public know…

The latter was already public knowledge, your entire salary history is probably available via The Work Number. This makes the former secret public knowledge.

Blimey, if your current salary is available at salary negotiation time then that's a much bigger problem then advertising salaries.

To your point: companies can advertise a big range, or create a new job title, for a job, or level you based on undecided job levels according to what they want to pay you. I don't think this legislation adds anything.