U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#161

Post by duderific » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:14 PM UTC

throwaway22032 wrote: post #27

I'm pretty sure I know why... The working environment changed. Bit by bit I moved from an environment with gentleman's agreements and so on towards something in which everything was codified, safetyism became rampant, etc. In the UK over the past few years I went from going into a nice office in a number of beautiful old buildings, getting my stuff done with cameraderie, having lunch together and playing board games,…

I don't consider myself particularly outgoing, but I'm glad to be back in the office 4 days a week. I really enjoy collaborating in person over a laptop or whiteboard, and shooting the breeze with my colleagues.

That said, I don't have an overly long commute, so I totally get it for those that are able to be more productive due to not spending hours in the car every day.

I notice that when I'm working from home, I'm much more likely to goof off and be less focused. Plus my wife being there is always distracting me with one thing or another. I'm pretty sure I'm quite a bit less productive working from home.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#162

Post by trollerator23 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:15 PM UTC

ScottBev wrote: post #151

Heavy push to go from WFH to in office in the last six months. Decrease in productivity in the last six months. It must be all the remote workers! Ignore the return to office push, inflation, burnout, and every other possible factor.

It's the opposite. It's the working from home that's the problem.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#163

Post by whatshisface » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:18 PM UTC

Mordisquitos wrote: post #144

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

> People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problems and they keep underestimating the flexibility of the old models. Related to this, but in a completely different context, I have had similar thoughts lately when eating out at restaurants in Spain. It's incredibly frustrating from a customer's point of view when the waiter taking your group's order has to use a newfangled tablet or phone-like device and tap…

Waiters put the bits of paper they're writing on on a rack in the kitchen. Other times, they shout out the orders and remember which table gets what.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#164

Post by nradov » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:19 PM UTC

bearjaws wrote: post #136

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

Are we sure the documentation isn't coming as required from the insurance companies? I know many Drs and especially nurses who CYA on all their documentation otherwise insurance will try to pin them on an adverse reaction.

Payers in general (not just insurance companies) require high levels of documentation both to prevent fraud and to increase care quality. Most healthcare providers are highly ethical and only act in their patients' best interest. But there are always a minority of bad actors who will try to boost revenue by submitting claims for procedures that weren't medically necessary, or weren't performed at all. So the system needs checks for that in order to hold down costs for everyone, and prevent iatrogenic harm.

You will also find many cases where even good providers let things slip through the cracks and fail to give some patients the appropriate level of care. For example, diabetics should generally receive annual foot exams, eye exams, and hemoglobin A1c tests. If the payer doesn't see evidence of those in the EHR then they can prompt the doctor to resolve that care quality gap.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#165

Post by yamtaddle » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #155

yamtaddle wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also fought it because they didn't go to medical school and survive residency to fill out forms all damn day—and they didn't used to have to, they had staff for that. Then the computerized systems "replaced" that staff but all that really means is they cut the human time needed low enough that full-time workers weren't needed, but didn't eliminate it, so now that's another thing doctors have to do themselves. AF…

Some healthcare provider organizations now employ medical scribes who follow physicians around and do all their EHR data entry. This is expensive, but can be cost effective because then the physicians have more time to perform billable procedures.

If so, that's hilarious, because that's precisely one of the jobs all these expensive, painful-to-use computer systems were supposed to replace. You'd take a year or two course at junior college, to learn shorthand and drill some medical terminology so you'd be less likely to make a bunch of simple transcription mistakes, then go to work.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#166

Post by givemeethekeys » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:23 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #110

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

I don’t think productivity was ever the goal of this software. It was to have a record that is standard, digital, transferable, etc. Doctors fought it as long as they could because they knew what it meant for them. I remember pretty early demos in early/mid 2000s when I was doing some clinical grunt work in college. I had written some software to make my department’s life easier so I was offered up as the hospital’s…

We can use an all HTML, Javascript-free interface that people can still memorize and quickly Tab through.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#167

Post by ip26 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #110

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

I don’t think productivity was ever the goal of this software. It was to have a record that is standard, digital, transferable, etc. Doctors fought it as long as they could because they knew what it meant for them. I remember pretty early demos in early/mid 2000s when I was doing some clinical grunt work in college. I had written some software to make my department’s life easier so I was offered up as the hospital’s…

I don’t think productivity was ever the goal of this software. It was to have a record that is standard, digital, transferable, etc.

Going a little further, this was appealing in part to avoid simple medical errors & oversights. Losing the record, mixing up records, incomplete history, and so on. Eliminating medical error is incredibly valuable but doesn't show up as "productivity".

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#168

Post by givemeethekeys » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

People going back to the office with 2 hours of commuting won't be more productive than people who work from home.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#169

Post by Underqualified » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

conductr wrote: post #110

lkrubner wrote: post #88

I've read that doctors now spend as much as 50% of their time documenting their work. Companies such as Epic, which provide the software that hospitals use to build databases of patient data, have been big winners in the new world of hospitals-depending-on-software. But did the doctors become more productive? By almost any measure, they became less productive. People in tech keep thinking more tech will solve problem…

I don’t think productivity was ever the goal of this software. It was to have a record that is standard, digital, transferable, etc. Doctors fought it as long as they could because they knew what it meant for them. I remember pretty early demos in early/mid 2000s when I was doing some clinical grunt work in college. I had written some software to make my department’s life easier so I was offered up as the hospital’s…

The GUI apps have the benefit of being easier for onboarding. We've redesigned the workplace to deal with constant employee turnover.

I guess they also make more sense to management since it looks like something they could do themselves, or at least understand.

Re: U.S. workers have gotten less productive – no one is sure why

#170

Post by nradov » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #128

The very important context is that productivity sharply rose in 2020, in the middle of the Covid recession. The recent drop in productivity is mostly just a return to pre-pandemic baseline. The simplest explanation is probably just that the workers who were laid off during Covid were the least productive, and so average worker output went up, then fell as they re-entered the labor force. Or maybe even just there was…

There is a similar effect in some countries with strict labor laws which make it difficult to fire employees. Unemployment rates end up being high, but productivity is also high because companies are only willing to hire the most productive workers and won't take a chance on anyone else.