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Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

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Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cleanest experiments here would be those having to do with stereotype threat. For example, women asked to write down their gender (even just with a checkbox) before a math test at the GRE level score significantly worse. Asian women asked to also write down their race are inoculated against this effect. These women are "primed" with their stereotypes and it dramatically influences performance. Even asking…

It seems that if stereotype threat is real, and applies to more circumstances than just an examination, then this is truly compelling evidence that women really are inferior to men (in aggregate, individuals may vary of course). After all, a man and a woman of equal intrinsic ability may perform just as well under ideal circumstances, but the woman's performance is fragile. If the woman is reminded of her gender at l…

That doesn't follow at all; and is phrased in a completely insensitive way. If you want to have a civilized conversation, stop that.

Boys/Men are also susceptible to stereotype threat. The priming with race is well known. They are also especially susceptible if they are primed with an "immutable talent" over "hard work = success" lesson, and then undertake a very difficult task. Boys struggle with this, and perform much worse in the next test, just as girls do.

Cultural factors are absolutely the dominant factors in which stereotypes are threatened. Both genders respond negatively to threats. That's no justification for claiming women are inferior!

An even more vivid example: Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes test:

"Steven Armstrong was the first child to arrive in Elliott’s classroom on that day, asking why "that King" (referring to Martin Luther King Jr.) was murdered the day before. After the rest of the class arrived, Elliott asked them what the children knew about blacks. The children responded with various racial stereotypes such as ignorance, unemployment, and common labels to those of Native Americans or Blacks[citation needed]. She then asked these children if they would like to try an exercise to feel what it was like to be treated the way a colored person is treated in America, mentioning that it would be interesting if there was segregation based on eye color instead of skin color. The children enthusiastically agreed to try the exercise.[1]

On that day, she designated the blue-eyed children as the superior group. Elliott provided brown fabric collars and asked the blue-eyed students to wrap them around the necks of their brown-eyed peers as a method of easily identifying the minority group. She gave the blue-eyed children extra privileges, such as second helpings at lunch, access to the new jungle gym, and five extra minutes at recess.[citation needed] The blue-eyed children sat in the front of the classroom, and the brown-eyed children were sent to sit the back rows. The blue-eyed children were encouraged to play only with other blue-eyes and to ignore those with brown eyes. Elliott would not allow brown-eyed and blue-eyed children to drink from the same water fountain, and often chastised the brown-eyed students when they did not follow the experiment's rules or made mistakes. She often exemplified the differences between the two groups by singling out students, and would use negative aspects of brown-eyed children to emphasize. Elliott observed that the students' reaction to the discrimination exercise showed immediate changes in their personalities and interaction with each other as early as the first 15 minutes.

At first, there was resistance among the students in the minority group to the idea that blue-eyed children were better than brown-eyed children. To counter this, Elliott used pseudo-scientific explanations for her actions by stating that the melanin responsible for making blue-eyed children also was linked to their higher intelligence and learning ability. Shortly thereafter, this initial resistance fell away. Those who were deemed “superior” became arrogant, bossy and otherwise unpleasant to their “inferior” classmates. Their grades also improved, doing mathematical and reading tasks that seemed outside their ability before. The “inferior” classmates also transformed – into timid and subservient children, including those who had previously been dominant in the class. These children’s academic performance suffered, even with tasks that had been simple before.

The following day, Elliott reversed the exercise, making the brown-eyed children superior. While the brown-eyed children did taunt the blue-eyed in ways similar to what had occurred the previous day, Elliott reports it was much less intense. At 2:30 on that Wednesday, Elliott told the blue-eyed children to take off their collars and the children cried and hugged one another. To reflect on the experience, she had the children write letters to Coretta Scott King and write compositions about the experience.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cleanest experiments here would be those having to do with stereotype threat. For example, women asked to write down their gender (even just with a checkbox) before a math test at the GRE level score significantly worse. Asian women asked to also write down their race are inoculated against this effect. These women are "primed" with their stereotypes and it dramatically influences performance. Even asking…

It seems that if stereotype threat is real, and applies to more circumstances than just an examination, then this is truly compelling evidence that women really are inferior to men (in aggregate, individuals may vary of course). After all, a man and a woman of equal intrinsic ability may perform just as well under ideal circumstances, but the woman's performance is fragile. If the woman is reminded of her gender at l…

That is a horrible and illogical assumption to make. Stereotype threat is shown to exist for white males. There is a stereotype that white people are less athletic than black people. If you prime white males by reminding them of the stereotype that they cannot perform well athletically, they will do worse.

Source: pages 8-11, Whistling Vivaldi, by Stanford professor and stereotype threat researcher Claude Steele.

Stereotype threat has been shown to affect any group subjected to a negative stereotype. Steele's book is rife with examples. Stereotype threat can also be dispelled with enough encouragement and the right kind of mentorship. You can, for example, decrease the performance of Asian female math students by first reminding them of their gender, but then you can improve their performance, too, by reminding them of them being Asian.

I am appalled that you made the leap from "women experience stereotype threat" to "they are inferior and have universally inferior psyches" without considering "hmm, do other groups experience stereotype threat too?"

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cleanest experiments here would be those having to do with stereotype threat. For example, women asked to write down their gender (even just with a checkbox) before a math test at the GRE level score significantly worse. Asian women asked to also write down their race are inoculated against this effect. These women are "primed" with their stereotypes and it dramatically influences performance. Even asking…

It seems that if stereotype threat is real, and applies to more circumstances than just an examination, then this is truly compelling evidence that women really are inferior to men (in aggregate, individuals may vary of course). After all, a man and a woman of equal intrinsic ability may perform just as well under ideal circumstances, but the woman's performance is fragile. If the woman is reminded of her gender at l…

That is a horrible and illogical assumption to make. Stereotype threat is shown to exist for white males. There is a stereotype that white people are less athletic than black people. If you prime white males by reminding them of the stereotype that they cannot perform well athletically, they will do worse.

Source: pages 8-11, Whistling Vivaldi, by Stanford professor and stereotype threat researcher Claude Steele.

Stereotype threat has been shown to affect any group subjected to a negative stereotype. Steele's book is rife with examples. Stereotype threat can also be dispelled with enough encouragement and the right kind of mentorship. You can, for example, decrease the performance of Asian female math students by first reminding them of their gender, but then you can improve their performance, too, by reminding them of them being Asian.

I am appalled that you made the leap from "women experience stereotype threat" to "they are inferior and have universally inferior psyches" without considering "hmm, do other groups experience stereotype threat too?"

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the cleanest experiments here would be those having to do with stereotype threat. For example, women asked to write down their gender (even just with a checkbox) before a math test at the GRE level score significantly worse. Asian women asked to also write down their race are inoculated against this effect. These women are "primed" with their stereotypes and it dramatically influences performance. Even asking…

It seems that if stereotype threat is real, and applies to more circumstances than just an examination, then this is truly compelling evidence that women really are inferior to men (in aggregate, individuals may vary of course). After all, a man and a woman of equal intrinsic ability may perform just as well under ideal circumstances, but the woman's performance is fragile. If the woman is reminded of her gender at l…

[deleted]

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus begins yet another unendable initiative. Differences exist, therefore we say there could be inequality. Since there could be inequality, better to consciously bias against the alleged inequality, just in case the inequality actually exists. And since it's impossible to prove its nonexistence, better to simply state that it exists. After all, there HAS to exist some bias somewhere, no matter how significant. It's…

My eyes rolled so hard at this, it woke up my wife in the next room. Then we both had a laugh at me being described as 'enlightened' - in my neck of the woods, most people think I'm a troglodyte. Look, sometimes people do real, obvious, correctable things that result in inequality. There's nothing 'alleged' about these things, and correcting them isn't an 'unendable initiative' - usually, all you've got to do is be a…

That is exactly the right thing to do.

But completely honestly, why did you even develop this kind of culture in the first place? Don't you think you should have prevented the whole situation in the first place?

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#106

There are a lot of hidden prejudices both in this article and in the entire discussion around women in technology and the startup world. I have a startup. I love startups. So should everybody else love startups too? Not at all. A more direct question: roughly 50% of people are females. Should 50% of startup founders be female? I don't think so, but I find it difficult to continue the conversation past this conclusion…

However, the fact that the patterns of behavior aren't random does clue you in that there are systemic factors involved, which can be analyzed and tested. Yes, every person makes an individual decision based on countless variables but that doesn't mean you can't make reliable conclusions based on the aggregate. This is like the reverse of the probabalistic fallacy that the 100th coin flip will be affected by the fact…

"However, the fact that the patterns of behavior aren't random does clue you in that there are systemic factors involved, which can be analyzed and tested."

That's exactly what I was going to say.

With regards to the article, everyone can bash Penelope Trunk all they want, but the fact remains that she's right. As an entrepreneur and adviser, she is correct.

People are always complaining about the lack of women in certain fields or the gender imbalance in science and technology--there are even organizations like "Change the Ratio" trying to affect that imbalance. But here's a question no one ever asks: is it in everyone's best interest to have more women in science, technology and business?

It drives me insane when people say that the whole child-rearing argument is sexist. No, it isn't sexist. That's one major thing that separates women from men--the former have the ability to carry and give birth to children. Many women sometimes find the urge to suddenly have children, and you can't predict when or if it will happen.

When it comes to matters of the sexes, you can't ignore biology.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#107
And he himself points out that by the time women are 40 and they want to go back to work full-time, these women are not going to relocate to Silicon Valley. But the truth is that if there were really a problem with there not being enough women running startups, then people like Fred would fund startups in suburbia. He’d fund startups that run at half-speed to accommodate carpools. He’d fund startups that have part-time ambitions. He’s not doing that, though. So clearly there is not that big a problem that women are not running startups: The market for funding has spoken, and it is still funding mostly men.

The market has spoken, and it is still funding mostly men that are willing to drop everything and relocate to NYC or Silicon Valley (who hopefully have minimal business experience so they can be convinced to give up more equity than they should). The things she lists as disqualifiers all apply to me, except the "being a woman" part.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#108

I was hoping hackernews would have a better discussion on this topic but I guess not. I think I'm the only person who is infuriated by Penelope Trunk's article in TechCrunch Titled "Stop telling women to do startups" It moves up to the top of HackerNews very quickly, and I'm a little disappointed by the comments in the article. The title is pure nonsense first of all, and while there are maybe two points that I could…

As a guy I have read a different article.

The article I read was about talking the talk versus walking the walk. And being aware that sacrifices will have to be made. And that people have a mind of their own and most of the people take the route of less sacrifices.

Honestly, nowadays in western world anybody can do just about anything if they put their mind and effort towards it. And acting as if women don't do startups as per some kind of society's disapproval is weak.

I was raised by an emancipated woman, who was a truck driver 40 years ago. I see the same kind of women around me. They are few, but they command respect and admiration.

And there is this other kind, too busy writing and debating to even get anything done.

My point? The author shared her experience of walking the walk in contrast to others who in a Victorian fashion talk the proper talk.

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#109
post #89

Penelope is known for throwing out controversial memes and running with the ones that get attention. This idea got her some pageviews last year and she's been rewriting the same article over and over again ever since: http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/09/women-startups-childre/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505143_162-47140168/are-startups... http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/16/blueprint-for-a-wom... http://venturebea…

I stopped reading the TC article when I hit the byline, having read her writing before.

Kudos, I guess, for her omitting (or TechCrunch excising) the advice about how women who really want to succeed should get plastic surgery, focus less on work and more on capturing and keeping a man.

That "Blueprint" post reads so much like satire that I actually read the entire thing, only to discover the woman was dead serious. "It's no small feat, but Botox and Restylane will be your best teammates in this part of the adventure." For real?? And that's not even the worst part of the post. Egad.

Anything for page views, I guess! :/

Re: Stop Telling Women To Do Startups

#110
On Jean Bittingham: "She’s an author and an academic. Of course. She has no idea what life is like running a startup, so she thinks it’s a good idea to tell other women to do that while she writes books."

That's how it's always been. There are the talkers (they're usually the academics as well) and then there are the doers-the ones that don't scream their opinion every chance they get, but if you ask them for advice they'll be full of real world experience to share with you. This article does raise a lot of good points though. I usually ignore posts with opinionated titles, but I'm glad I read this one.

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