US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#151

Post by btown » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #34

> Institutions like Harvard say they consider an applicant's race as one of several factors - including economic status and religious belief - in order to build classes that accurately represent the racial and ethnic diversity of the country. I mean, this is all kind of window dressing for elite institutions to be elite, right? There are millions of people qualified to attend these university, Harvard gets to hand se…

Expanding the size of enrollment isn't just something that can flipped like a switch. One cannot simply build a high-rise dormitory without increasing the capacity of all other facilities in lockstep - and a university designed to be fully walkable can only accommodate so much simultaneous construction.

And more generally, you have the use of applicants' race backwards - the entire point of affirmative action is to take into account an applicant's merit-based performance relative to the opportunities they received growing up - and it is difficult to evaluate this fairly without taking into account the opportunities that might have been denied to the applicant as a result of their race.

To put it another way, two hypothetical applicants from two families with different races but equivalent wealth etc. in the same community may have been treated incredibly differently based on their race. An admissions office forced to be "blind" to an applicant describing this discrepancy in opportunity would be less effective at evaluating applicants based on merit.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#152

Post by eli » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #97

eli wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

> This is a conservative, outcomes-driven court. I find this view to be pretty naive. The vast majority of judges in the US legal system are naturally going to be conservative in that the job is to follow the letter of the law. To the extent that progressive justices move up through the legal system is only through political appointments. It seems easier to me to say the vast majority of progressive opinions from the…

> The vast majority of judges in the US legal system are naturally going to be conservative in that the job is to follow the letter of the law.

C'mon, who's being naive now?

The law was already settled on this issue. This case is being heard with the goal of overturning precedent. It's not because we learned new things about the Constitution in the last 20 years.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#153

Post by kevinsundar » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #140

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty easy to bypass by looking at parents' tax returns from the past 20 years, plus their assets.

Because no one has ever worked for cash and lied about it? Do you suspect that someone who launders dirty money for a living did their taxes and listed "money launderer" as occupation and reported their income? Assets like this are often hidden behind shell companies to prevent law enforcement from taking them under "proceeds of crime" charges.

There are so few people this would apply to (wealthy individuals with large amounts of unreported cash income who are applying to college) that its not even worth considering as an edge case for college admissions.

The point isn't to eliminate every possible way college admissions can be gamed but to get the best method that works for the majority of applicants.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#154

Post by D13Fd » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

colpabar wrote: post #117

balozi wrote: post #29

The oral arguments are an excellent listen: - https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/live.aspx (live) - https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_audio/2... (recorded)

Thank you for this. Are news outlets not allowed to include links to actual source material or something? Why is it that I almost always find these links in HN comments rather than the article itself? It's really annoying and I genuinely don't understand why this is so common, just like not linking to the actual studies for "science" news. To me it just seems sneaky, like if the article is correct, why not link the s…

I agree, and it irks me. When there is clear online source material, like in an article about a court case or viral video, the newspaper should link that material.

I think many of these outlets must have a no-external-linking policy. But it really hurts their credibility and even their readability IMO.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#155

Post by marcusverus » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #108

legitster wrote: post #34

> Institutions like Harvard say they consider an applicant's race as one of several factors - including economic status and religious belief - in order to build classes that accurately represent the racial and ethnic diversity of the country. I mean, this is all kind of window dressing for elite institutions to be elite, right? There are millions of people qualified to attend these university, Harvard gets to hand se…

> Notice that they don't care about diversity of viewpoints or politics Ever talked to someone from Harvard? (they'll usually tell you in the first 4 minutes you meet them telling you they went to school in Boston). They admit quite a number of conservative people if that's what you're worried about, and even their more left people are pretty center-right, as in they really don't want to pay more taxes. > they could…

> They admit quite a number of conservative people...

Nope. Fewer than 10% of students are conservative.[0]

> and even their more left people are pretty center-right...

Nope. ~65% self-identify as "Very Progressive" or "Progressive"! [0]

There is no pretending that this is an accident, given that conservatives outnumber liberals by ~40% in the general population! [1]

[0] https://features.thecrimson.com/2022/senior-survey/national-... [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/328367/americans-political-ideo...

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#156

Post by LatteLazy » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:57 PM UTC

anonAndOn wrote: post #122

LatteLazy wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably if you cannot use race to decide who gets a place, you cannot use race to decide who get's a scholarship. At least as Harvard University, different rules might apply for the NAACP etc.

Who said anything about race? If you can afford Choate, you can afford $250k/year at Harvard. But the kid from Biloxi, MS gets a "scholarship" so she only pays $25k/yr.

Of course, for 250k*4y I could probably just buy a house in Biloxi... And many of the people the current system removes from the pool come from areas that would be just as economically under-performing as other groups.

Sorry if I have missed your point?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#157

Post by eli » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

adastra22 wrote: post #134

danenania wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as naive to think it would ever work otherwise. Justices are political appointees and political actors. I see no reason to expect anything different. Believing they are somehow "above politics" strikes me as similarly fanciful to believing in the divine right of kings.

Judges are NOT political appointees. Within the civil service a political appointee is one that can be and usually is dismissed in a change of government. Heads of agencies and such. Supreme Court justices serve lifetime appointments specifically so that they are not subject to political interference.

This is needlessly pedantic. They are appointed by politicians.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#158

Post by Overtonwindow » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

btown wrote: post #151

legitster wrote: post #34

> Institutions like Harvard say they consider an applicant's race as one of several factors - including economic status and religious belief - in order to build classes that accurately represent the racial and ethnic diversity of the country. I mean, this is all kind of window dressing for elite institutions to be elite, right? There are millions of people qualified to attend these university, Harvard gets to hand se…

Expanding the size of enrollment isn't just something that can flipped like a switch. One cannot simply build a high-rise dormitory without increasing the capacity of all other facilities in lockstep - and a university designed to be fully walkable can only accommodate so much simultaneous construction. And more generally, you have the use of applicants' race backwards - the entire point of affirmative action is to t…

Ivy schools have some of the largest endowments, rivaling the GDP of some small countries. If Harvard, and Yale were serious about diversity, they would let people attend for free.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#159

Post by naniwaduni » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #140

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty easy to bypass by looking at parents' tax returns from the past 20 years, plus their assets.

Because no one has ever worked for cash and lied about it? Do you suspect that someone who launders dirty money for a living did their taxes and listed "money launderer" as occupation and reported their income? Assets like this are often hidden behind shell companies to prevent law enforcement from taking them under "proceeds of crime" charges.

There are enough disadvantages to having your money be "dirty" in this way that I'm not sure it really moves the needle?

There's no way this is an easier way to game admissions than throwing around "clean" money, right?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#160

Post by eli » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #150

eli wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard obviously can't literally be open to all. They only have so many spots and many applicants. If admissions were based entirely on GPA, is that a more fair system?

Is it legal to discriminate on race where you life? Let's say i own a company and refuse to hire [ethnic minority]. Is this legal? Isn't that what is taking place here? Asians are being denied entry simply because they are Asian.

GPA isn't an objective measure and is not free of the influence of race