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US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

bbc.com

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Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#91

Post by fzeroracer »

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

Here's a spicy take: Merit mostly doesn't exist. In order to invent the concept of merit (for college admissions anyways), you need to weigh colleges, universities, high schools etc with varying degrees of power which inherently is extremely subjective.

Is someone earning say, a 3.0 at Harvard better than someone that earned a 4.0 at state? What about the highschool student that graduated with perfect As in a lax highschool? Do you consider AP classes more valuable over the student that took college classes instead? How do you address the fact that these sort of things disproportionately affect different minority groups?

If you start taking a lot of these factors into mind, you end up with something very similar to affirmative action. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#92

Post by tablespoon »

filoleg wrote: post #37
kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

I think the correct move here is not to go full-on "merit-based access", but change the affirmative action to be based on socio-economic status. Boom, you just solved the issue the race-based AA was claiming to address, but by going directly to the source of the problem (socio-economic inequality). I am not saying this out of some abstract concern about asian kids with perfect scores failing to get admitted to Harvar…

> I think the correct move here is not to go full-on "merit-based access", but change the affirmative action to be based on socio-economic status. Boom, you just solved the issue the race-based AA was claiming to address, but by going directly to the source of the problem (socio-economic inequality).

Also move the efforts down the prestige ladder. Affirmative action at Harvard does diddly-squat do address anything except allow Harvard to signal its own virtue.

Society would be much better served to take a large fraction of Harvard's endowment, and use it to send disadvantaged kids to state land-grant colleges. You could help a lot more of them, and they'd be less likely to flame out to do culture clash and/or relative lack of preparation.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#93

Post by [deleted] »

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

[deleted]

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#95

Post by johncessna »

1980phipsi wrote: post #16
nkingsy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't familiar with the term outcomes-driven: It is when "a court decides what the outcome of the case should be and then works backward to determine the reasoning that will reach the desired conclusion"

If you think conservatives have a monopoly on this, then take a look at some of the most important Supreme Court cases from FDR through the 1970s or so.

You mean like selecting Justices based on their gender and skin color?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#96

Post by tsimionescu »

orangepurple wrote: post #51
tsimionescu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, someone will get either doctor. Whichever I get is essentially down to luck, so why does this question matter?

Lots of people don't care about what doctor they get. I have heard endless stories from doctors that see patients all day where so many patients don't care about their own health to the point of having limbs amputated and shrugging it off like its no big deal. Or having complications from diabetes and declining free-to-them care. Not taking medication. There are so many of these people. They seem to be mostly on Medi…

Are you claiming that only the 3.9 GPA Harvard doctor is able to function in their profession?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#97

Post by legitster »

eli wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

> This is a conservative, outcomes-driven court.

I find this view to be pretty naive. The vast majority of judges in the US legal system are naturally going to be conservative in that the job is to follow the letter of the law. To the extent that progressive justices move up through the legal system is only through political appointments.

It seems easier to me to say the vast majority of progressive opinions from the Supreme court have been outcomes driven and the current court is reverting to process-driven (you have to actually pass legislation for legislative changes).

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#98

Post by AnonCoward42 »

filoleg wrote: post #37
kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

I think the correct move here is not to go full-on "merit-based access", but change the affirmative action to be based on socio-economic status. Boom, you just solved the issue the race-based AA was claiming to address, but by going directly to the source of the problem (socio-economic inequality). I am not saying this out of some abstract concern about asian kids with perfect scores failing to get admitted to Harvar…

"socio-economic status" means nothing. This is so often used after race (discrimination) apparently is no longer a good argument "yeah but it's socio-economic". It's not falsifiable and therefore it should be dismissed as an argument.

If you mean poor, say poor.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#99

Post by geraldwhen »

crispyambulance wrote: post #88
kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

> What ever happened to access based on merit? For the context of this case, don't forget we're talking about Harvard. This school, if they wanted, could limit themselves to selecting ONLY from applicants with PERFECT test scores, PEREFECT GPA's, ideal extracurriculars and still have far too many applicants than they could admit. They would then have to resort to either a lottery system to select randomly from this p…

Sounds fair to me. And Harvard admission would mean something.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#100

Post by kashunstva »

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

> Whatever happened to access based on merit?

Families with more resources apply those resources to the creation of apparent “merit.” Violin lessons, Kumon, French tutors, international travel. The mythology that what we call merit arises de novo with each subsequent generation is pervasive indeed. This investment process is intergenerational wealth transfer by another name; it’s just paid on the front end instead of the back end.

Whether university admission is the right locus of intervention or not is an open question; but kidding ourselves that merit exists solely as a stand-alone property separate from the developmental opportunities purchased by parents is a commonly-held belief that undermines advancement; but I suppose it makes us feel better about the structure of society. But if we were serious about allowing equal opportunity for merit to emerge we’d intervene much earlier than university admission. But then again, I doubt you’d find a consensus about what a just society would look like.

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