US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#71

Post by adastra22 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #37

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

I think the correct move here is not to go full-on "merit-based access", but change the affirmative action to be based on socio-economic status. Boom, you just solved the issue the race-based AA was claiming to address, but by going directly to the source of the problem (socio-economic inequality). I am not saying this out of some abstract concern about asian kids with perfect scores failing to get admitted to Harvar…

That already exists. Universities have quotas for a certain number of poor kids and/or first generation college applicants. Race-based affirmative action is a separate category of discrimination.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#72

Post by r00fus » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #37

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

I think the correct move here is not to go full-on "merit-based access", but change the affirmative action to be based on socio-economic status. Boom, you just solved the issue the race-based AA was claiming to address, but by going directly to the source of the problem (socio-economic inequality). I am not saying this out of some abstract concern about asian kids with perfect scores failing to get admitted to Harvar…

While I mostly agree - can't this be gamed (see what people do to qualify for MediCAL in CA), though?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#73

Post by willio58 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

trention wrote: post #61

willio58 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is the problem with meritocracy, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The reason someone has merit is arguably _only_ due to external factors. You are the way you are because of your DNA and environment. You are who you are because of who your parents are and how they chose to raise you, but they are only who they are because of their parents. And that recurses all the way back to the first organisms.

>_only_ due to external factors. You are the way you are because of your DNA and environment. Your DNA is not an "external factor". Rather, it's the most internal factor there is.

Where does your DNA come from if not an external source?

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#74

Post by silisili » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

arberx wrote: post #13

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

A true meritocracy wouldn't be a friendly world to live in. Think about the current state of education. Parents with resources over-optimize their kids' education because they understand the inefficiencies in the system and/or understand what it takes to become successful in our society.

That's only part of the equation. The fact is, generally, anyone in the US who has a capable brain and really tries can excel. There's no shortage of examples of people growing up poor who did excellent in school and/or careers. Do they have a disadvantage in not having the same resources as a wealthy family? Definitely. But it's only a disadvantage, not a roadblock.

I feel like a lot of the argument is little more than regret filled excuses and sour grapes.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#75

Post by smeyer » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

velavar wrote: post #57

I'm curious as to why affirmative action in the US has always been race-based and not economic-status or household income based? Asking as someone with no skin in the game; I'm merely curious if anyone has any constructive opinions on why they think economic status based affirmative action may/may not work?

I'm a Harvard alumnus but obviously don't speak on behalf of Harvard. The Harvard admissions office does consider folks from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds, and does not only look at race. There is a dirty history to the origins of schools steering away from entrance exams towards more holistic admissions, but it really is the case that they consider what opportunities were available to students based on the high schools they attended, whether applicants had time for extracurricular activities or were busy working a job or caring for a family member, and plenty of other circumstances that are not just limited to pure meritocracy and race.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#76

Post by Miner49er » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

Including race (among other factors) is more of a meritocracy then not, in my opinion. To fully calculate merit, schools should consider challenges and starting points for students. Students who had to overcome more difficulty to get where they are have more merit then students who are at the same place, but had an easier path to get there.

I'm not sure how much race plays an impact on difficulty of academic achievement, but I'm sure there's data on it that Universities are using. Black students, on average, probably have to overcome more adversity, since racism does exist. Being able to include that in admissions should mean more of a meritocracy, not less.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#77

Post by adolph » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #17

epgui wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to it refers to a concept called the meritocracy trap.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

outcomes > preferences

Contrary to the a priori hypothesis that care would be compromised by so many of the top cardiologists being gone, they find that adjusted mortality for high-risk heart failure and cardiac arrest is lower at teaching hospitals during the cardiology meetings than during the rest of the year. And although patients were less likely to get a percutaneous coronary intervention for a myocardial infarction during the convention times, there was no associated decrement on myocardial infarction–associated mortality.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#78

Post by puffoflogic » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #38

1980phipsi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think conservatives have a monopoly on this, then take a look at some of the most important Supreme Court cases from FDR through the 1970s or so.

The Supreme Court is a political organization that likes to pretend it's something else. I think that's always been the case and I agree it isn't inherently one party or the other. That said, with the notable exception of the Warren court, SCOTUS has been conservative for its whole history.

Constitutional reality is right-biased.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#79

Post by snovv_crash » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #58

nradov wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies have shown that surgery outcomes are highly correlated with experience in that particular procedure. So if I needed a heart bypass operation, I would want the surgeon who does 5 of them every week and nothing else. Where they attended medical school is unimportant. You might have a stronger argument in other medical specialties where theory is more important. But heart surgeons are more like athletes in a way…

SO.. tell us what would allow a surgeon to start operating in the first place? You simply presented a chicken and egg problem... Does the mediocre surgeon get all the surgeries and therefor become excellent at it?

We should do what pilots have to do: start with simulators, then move to copilot, then primary pilot with an experienced copilot, then finally primary with inexperienced copilot. The medical system gets the later parts right, but there are no simulation components at the beginning.

IMO it would even be helpful for surgeons to do some time as carpenter, mechanic, fitter/turner etc for some time to really drill the hand/eye before they start on humans.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#80

Post by ericmay » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #28

arberx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A true meritocracy wouldn't be a friendly world to live in. Think about the current state of education. Parents with resources over-optimize their kids' education because they understand the inefficiencies in the system and/or understand what it takes to become successful in our society.

> Parents with resources over-optimize their kids' education because they understand the inefficiencies in the system and/or understand what it takes to become successful in our society This is a perfectly fine response to meritocratic pressure. With tuning to ensure the response is productive learning, versus e.g. rote memorisation, the outcome should be a more-productive citizenry. In any event, the case is about r…

I'm not sure about how I feel about Affirmative Action and I do appreciate another member's suggestion to look at socio-economic background. But is this really our goal?

> should be a more-productive citizenry

I'm not sure I care that much about that. Especially w.r.t college admissions. If you wanted to be more productive you'd not even send many people to college in the first place and just have them go straight into the labor force.