US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#41

Post by tyho » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #25

About time. The whole idea behind it is stupid and racist... "if you're a certain skin color, you're too stupid, to compete on merit"... then when people complain, they add the "socioeconomic" factors: "if you're a certain color, you're too poor to compete on merit, but instead of looking at your family income, we'll look at your skin color". I have no idea how something like this gets support in developed western co…

That is because the gaps persist when controlling for income. The gaps actually increase the higher up the income scale you go!

This happens in a democracy because whilst a tiny minority of people care about principles, most people care about power. AA empowered the right people so happened. It's a mistake to try to understand its justification from a first principles approach.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#42

Post by willio58 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

arberx wrote: post #13

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

A true meritocracy wouldn't be a friendly world to live in. Think about the current state of education. Parents with resources over-optimize their kids' education because they understand the inefficiencies in the system and/or understand what it takes to become successful in our society.

Yeah this is the problem with meritocracy, it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The reason someone has merit is arguably _only_ due to external factors. You are the way you are because of your DNA and environment. You are who you are because of who your parents are and how they chose to raise you, but they are only who they are because of their parents. And that recurses all the way back to the first organisms.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#43

Post by polski-g » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #27

kennend3 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

Since we're talking about surgery, wouldn't hand-eye coordination be more important than the GPA from Harvard medical?

If Harvard graded appropriately, then GPA would be a proxy for hand-eye coordination.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#44

Post by nradov » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:23 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #17

epgui wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to it refers to a concept called the meritocracy trap.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

Studies have shown that surgery outcomes are highly correlated with experience in that particular procedure. So if I needed a heart bypass operation, I would want the surgeon who does 5 of them every week and nothing else. Where they attended medical school is unimportant.

You might have a stronger argument in other medical specialties where theory is more important. But heart surgeons are more like athletes in a way.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#45

Post by pcurve » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:24 PM UTC

How well you do academically is influenced predominantly by genetics. It’s unfair to idolize these institution as something to aspire to and worship. Doing so is a gross misallocation of precious resources as a society. Instead they should be viewed as trade school for academically gifted. We should find different ways to harness the remaining 95 percentile. Striking it down would be the step in the right direction

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#46

Post by hedora » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #35

eli wrote: post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

What do you think is the conservative outcome? It is not so obvious. The allegation is that Harvard is discriminating against Asians (and thus favoring Whites). California colleges are not allowed to consider race. Check Asian vs. White student percentages at UCSD. Is that the outcome conservatives want?

> Conservatism: an in-group who are protected but not bound by the law; and an out-group who are bound, but not protected, by the law.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#47

Post by petilon » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #25

About time. The whole idea behind it is stupid and racist... "if you're a certain skin color, you're too stupid, to compete on merit"... then when people complain, they add the "socioeconomic" factors: "if you're a certain color, you're too poor to compete on merit, but instead of looking at your family income, we'll look at your skin color". I have no idea how something like this gets support in developed western co…

> "if you're a certain skin color, you're too stupid, to compete on merit"

Hold on. You realize Harvard's policies have historically been designed to favor Whites, right? The whole "holistic review" process was invented to favor Whites. See https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/histor...

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#48

Post by awb » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #3

I so hope this is struck down. ""Americans have come to view diversity as integral to learning and to trust that the path to leadership is open to all," lawyers representing Harvard University wrote in a court filing." This is not true, and the Asians who were denied entry based on their race would agree. What ever happened to access based on merit?

> What ever happened to access based on merit?

It’s a complex problem. If the process of evaluating someone’s merits is biased or restricted in some way, then the merits are an inaccurate way of evaluating them.

We’ve seen this exaggerated throughout history. If you deny groups the opportunity to learn how to read then they appear less competent based on their “merits”. When you then take those groups and give them the opportunity to learn how to read, then their “merits” improve over time.

But it’s complex because no two students are the same, nor are any two reading teachers, nor any two reading tests.

So, rather than making it unconstitutional to enfranchise groups, I hope the court comes up with some sort of test to see if a group remains disenfranchised or not. But that’s also an incredibly complex problem.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#49

Post by gilbetron » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #17

epgui wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened to it refers to a concept called the meritocracy trap.

Let's say you need open heart surgery. Doctor one has a 3.9 GPA from Harvard medical. Doctor two barely passed your state's medical school Which do you want doing your operation? The "meritocracy trap" often caves into "wealth and privilege" and this is not meritocracy.

The Doctor that has performed the most open heart surgeries, which is probably one of the two that passed the state's medical school.

Re: US Supreme Court to weigh end to race-based college admissions

#50

Post by spoonjim » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

I’m of two minds here. Obviously race based admissions is unfair. But Harvard isn’t trying to admit the next generation of scholars, it’s trying to admit the next generation of power. Will that generation be 75% Asian, the way a class would be if formed with standardized testing? Doesn’t seem likely.