Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

411–420 of 483 posts

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#411

Post by GuB-42 »

tophi wrote: post #401
hammock wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devils advocate, if the cost of working to improve cameras to the point where they eliminate that delta is lower than the cost of using the sensors instead, then it is a net benefit

Yes, the current delta was not massive and will shrink over time. By getting rid of the extra sensors they eliminate a temporary crutch and focus resources on the simple solution. Not a new concept by the way. Henry Ford was obsessed with simplifying and eliminating every part that wasn’t necessary on the model T for virtually all the same reasons.

The difference is that Ford started with something that worked. The Ford T is noteworthy because of the way it was made, not for its abilities as an automobile.

Tesla is starting with something that doesn't work. No one has been able to achieve full autonomy yet, not even Waymo on its own turf, despite Waymo being well ahead of Tesla. I trust Tesla will be able to close the gap and be able to perform to the its current standards without radar and ultrasound, and it would be fine if the current standards weren't terrible in the first place. What I mean is that Tesla is currently at the awkward spot where it is good enough for cruise control, but not good enough to safely take a nap in the driver seat.

As for the "simple solution", you may know the saying "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong". I think it applies here.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#412

Post by freejazz »

Nomentatus wrote: post #354
freejazz wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no doubt that might be the case; as I already explained, it's obviously due to the fact that they are cheap.

So you're again gainsaying his explanation, but gainsaying says nothing that helps anyone else make a decision. How are the rest of us who aren't psychic to know he's lying?

I'm not gainsaying his explanation. You don't seem to understand that a function of his explanation is what Tesla is willing to invest and their ability to recoup in a sale of the car.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#413

Post by P_I_Staker »

dmix wrote: post #227
AlotOfReading wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outcomes have to be truly and utterly fucked for "new" types of problems to be noticed in the automotive industry. Take the Toyota Unintended Acceleration case, where completely negligent software quality took over a decade and at least 89 lives to be noticed and (partially) rectified. Regulators have keen noses for very particular types of issues and rely heavily on manufacturer judgements on a lot of the rest. Issu…

I’ve read into the Toyota case in the past and it doesn’t seem like it was that obvious of a regulatory failure, where you could come to such a conclusion. Did I miss some good article covering it? Because everything I’ve read with the benefit of retrospect has been pretty critical of a lot the alleged ‘cases’ reported in that 89 number. Are you sure that’s the example you want to use for pre-emptive regulatory failu…

While that might be the case, Toyota has been found very negligent in how they develop software. It's an epidemic in the industry.

I think OP is just marveling at how so much can be so obviously wrong, and yet not garner attention and criticism. They should be exposed when they audit the software process, and really taken to task.

I think OP might be acting a little unrealistic, in that it seems like the world just works this way. However it's quite shocking to see the level of carelessness that can go into critical software.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#414

Post by freejazz »

xodjmk wrote: post #282
freejazz wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you'd assume all of that. You keep saying engineers, but it's a business decision. Seems like you are getting caught up in marketing.

I am an engineer working on autonomous vehicles. Nothing personal just responding to the thread as a whole. I don't believe this guy is conspiring to trick anyone. Business decisions, or course. I think they are in good faith gambling on this one approach. So I am interested to see if their idea will win, or if someone else figures out a better way.

Okay so they are "good faith" gambling? I don't want to drive in a car that has any gambling... I don't get how it being in good faith (generous on your part) makes it less of a gamble?

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#415

Post by freejazz »

xodjmk wrote: post #322
YZF wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There problem is not that he was wrong, the problem is that he's made a motherhood statement in response to a very specific question. He's not conspiring to trick people per se but he's also not being super clear. His position obviously makes it difficult to answer this question. It's possible he really believes this is better but if he didn't he wouldn't exactly tell us something that makes him and his previous empl…

Maybe you're right, I don't care about Tesla drama. Here is one possible perspective from an engineering standpoint: Same amount of $$, same amount of software complexity, same size of engineering teams, same amount of engineering hours, same amount of moving parts. One company focuses on multiple different sensors and complex fusion with some reliance on AI. Another company focuses on limited sensors and more relian…

People absolutely get that. Their issue is that Tesla is only relying on visual data and then on what is a disingenuous basis, insist that this is okay because humans "only need eyes" or some other similar sort of strawman argument.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#416

Post by woeirua »

pyinstallwoes wrote: post #265
woeirua wrote: post #106

Andrej's argument about more sensors adding entropy strikes me as disingenuous considering that in the next question he then says that Tesla's biggest advantage over everyone else is "the fleet", which clearly introduces orders of magnitude more entropy into the system than anything else. Can you imagine the infrastructure required to gather video from "the fleet" anytime a car sees something unexpected? How about di…

Your comparison is a little short sighted because your example would require fleet * additional sensor entropy rather than fleet on itself. And if fleet on itself is adequate then anything extra is simply inefficient at best.

No, my point was that the fleet itself adds entropy to the system because it creates a lot of noise for engineers to track down edge cases and other weird things that happen when you're collecting data from a lot of "sensors", i.e. cars, at once. The exact same argument Karpathy made about why they dumped ultrasonics and radar.

The problem is that so far, Tesla has yet to demonstrate that the fleet _is_ sufficient. IMO, if the fleet was enough to get to L5 autonomous driving, then they would already be there.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#417

Post by woeirua »

ralfd wrote: post #172
woeirua wrote: post #106

Andrej's argument about more sensors adding entropy strikes me as disingenuous considering that in the next question he then says that Tesla's biggest advantage over everyone else is "the fleet", which clearly introduces orders of magnitude more entropy into the system than anything else. Can you imagine the infrastructure required to gather video from "the fleet" anytime a car sees something unexpected? How about di…

Assuming Karpathy is lying is quite a hot take to disregard his opinion. No. He makes it clear that he is very convinced about it. There is no relativism, no weasel words or couching in maybes. He could be wrong, of course, but he believes in what he is saying.

Here's the thing though, if you're Karpathy and you are 100% confident that Tesla's approach is on the cusp of delivering full L5 autonomous driving, then why leave? Surely, Tesla would become the most valuable company overnight if they could actually do it. He would be showered with accolades when they finally finish it. To leave, _before_ any of that happens, says it all.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#418

Post by P_I_Staker »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #89

I remember watching an interview with George Hotz when Comma.ai was young, where he essentially said this as a critique of Tesla. He's a bit of a showman and likes to invite a little controversy when he says things, but I found myself agreeing with his point. It's not surprising to see such a practical company like Tesla face the facts about all these sensors eventually.

> such a practical company like Tesla

Where are you getting that from? Tesla has always seemed pie in the sky, and hardly a down to earth company at all throughout the history.

I'm basing this one both their public record, and reputation within the auto industry.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#419

Post by AlotOfReading »

leoh wrote: post #340
AlotOfReading wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that most autonomous vehicle solutions have dedicated microphones for emergency vehicles and sensors that can detect slip. I had a little dashboard measuring wheel slip at . It mainly ended up mapping train tracks and potholes.

where company := gm ?

I've worked for multiple companies in the industry.

Re: Why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors [video]

#420

Post by rootusrootus »

oxplot wrote: post #245
rootusrootus wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great for them. But when I'm shopping for a car, I get to choose between a manufacturer that installs the extra sensors and seems to be able to get them to work, and Tesla. Used to be that Tesla was blazing a trail and if you wanted a good EV, that was what you got. Now, if you want the best EV, it's usually not going to be a Tesla. And I don't see that they're making any decisions that will regain them that t…

> Now, if you want the best EV, it's usually not going to be a Tesla. Would love to hear what you consider "good" and what specific EV ticks the most good features that a Tesla Model 3 doesn't.

Actual interior controls, to start. Tesla needed to save money on the interior and the giant consumer grade LCD was a really great way to do that. But now that the incumbents have entered the game, the standards are going up. The Ioniq 5 has two screens, one in front of the driver, and actual climate controls. The Mach E has a screen in front of the driver, and actual tactile controls as well. This is basically true of all non-Tesla EVs now.

CarPlay? Almost all cars, expensive or cheap, have CarPlay. Except Tesla. And you can throw Android Auto in there too.

Rain sensing wipers. That work, I mean. A firmly established technology at this point that Tesla can't make work. Then they insult you by including substandard manual controls so working around it is a chore.

360* surround camera. You can say that Tesla might have enough cameras on board to do it if they want. But they don't seem to want. So that's a feature that does not exist on a Tesla that I can get on a number of other EVs.

Parking sensors. Blindspot warnings (actual working sensors like most regular cars have now, not the sometimes-it-notices camera-based warnings my Model 3 would occasionally give me). Radar cruise control.

The best hands free driving is SuperCruise, and I can get that on a Chevy Bolt EUV, which costs something like 20 grand less than a Model 3.

I can get OTA updates from other manufacturers too. Notably, without the 'screw you' attitude that Tesla has, where they happily turn off customer features they don't feel the customer should have. Everything from taking away battery range without permission to turning off radar hardware that is already installed. Tesla is a consumer hostile company.

You have a point with the charging network, though that is quickly becoming moot since the non-Tesla networks are collectively growing faster.

Range is good on paper for Teslas, but my real world experience is that my Model 3 never got anywhere near it's EPA rating, my wife's Bolt usually exceeds it. As a practical matter, my P3D had less actual range than the Bolt even though the latter was only rated at 259. At least the supercharger was faster, which meant I spent 10 less minutes charging on our regular 300 mile round trip to Grandma's house.

I'm in the market again for another EV, and I can't find a single compelling reason to go with Tesla. The Model 3 is arguably worse now than the one I bought a few years ago, whereas the competition has been adding new features every year.

Post reply on HN